Why does the Pyramid method works???

Hey,

I have a question for you analytical honing masters out there, and I have been having a hard time looking for the condensed answers throughout the vast supply of forum info out there. Thus, in short, I was wondering why and how does the pyramid work?

Before anyone answers I would like to explain myself a little bit better.

First, I understand the mechanics of the pyramid method: about switching back and forth between two different grits. So I'm not looking for answers of how to do the pyramid method, but rather what is happening to the metal as you are performing it, both as you progress to your next grit but most importantly returning to the courser grit.

Second, I already know that the method works, and that it is a foot in the door for us beginners on a tried and tested method in order to start the road down the art of honing. So please leave out the answers of "Just because it works" and "If it ain't broken don't fix it".

Third, I know that it keeps a person from overhoning. But what is technical meaning of overhoning, and how does going back to the courser grit prevent that from happening.

Forth, I have already read many posts that uses the phrase "Sneak up on the edge". And I know that once the edge has reached its pinnacle of sharpness, you do not want to go any farther on that grit lest you damage the edge and have to start again, but as with my previous point, how does going back to the courser grit allow you to sneak up on the edge.

Lastly, I want to understand only the pyramid method, not the progressive method. I am not looking for opinions on which is better or worse. This is just a knowledge base question to understand the practical application of the method. But please if you can help me to understand why the pyramid works by using references to the progressive, then by all means, please help me to understand.

Sorry if I sound a little anal, but I know that if I don't explain what I am not looking for, it would be a sure thing that I would get a world of answers that would be meaningless and not answering my question. And again this question is only about the theory and is knowledge based so that a better understanding may help me in the future produce better edges and answer some questions if I one day am asked the dreaded "Why?".

Thanks for everyone's input ahead of time.

I'll be following this thread. I had dismissed the pyramid idea early because I could see no logical reason for how it could possibly be any help to go backwards in a progression. I have all of the same questions that you have stated so well.

Now here is my only contribution. During a recent honing session I had set a bevel on a King 800 and progressed to a 3k Naniwa. After some time at 3k, inspection at 100X showed a chip that was large enough to warrant going back to the 800 grit stone. I believe the chip had been there all along and that I had just missed it when progressing. After some time on the 800 I again inspected to verify that I had removed the chip. The chip was gone, but the thing relative to this discussion was that the edge condition and scratch pattern was much more refined than it would have been had I just stayed on the 800 until the chip was gone without the step to the 3k. The backward step resulted in the lower grit stone behaving as an intermediate grit between 800 and 3k.

I plan on doing some more experimentation with 3k, 6k, and 8k grits. I have some thoughts about what is occurring. I'm thinking that the step back removes some of the irregularities of the edge without going back as far as the previous step, and then the forward step refines this more regular edge resulting in a higher degree of refinement than is possible with a normal linear progression. I will be honing another razor soon from bevel set up and try to have more to add to the discussion.

I saw a post that alluded to industry using techniques similar to this. The OP stated that the theory of why it worked would be more controversial than whether it worked.

Honestly reading your post I think you already have all the answers there, not sure what could be added.. :shrug:

Only thing I can say is it was basically developed as a step by step system to help beginners get on the hones nothing more, just like most of the "Honing" vids out there, they are just the basics... They are mostly designed to get you from point A to point B as simply as possible, over the years they have been over analyzed JMHO
I think you already have the reasons why it works

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

Third, I know that it keeps a person from overhoning. But what is technical meaning of overhoning, and how does going back to the courser grit prevent that from happening.

---

Now the Overhoning question is best answered by you creating it on a razor with your hone,,

Take a 1k and use excessive pressure and circles or a high stroke count and you will start to see the edge begin to deteriorate under magnification seeing it occur as you hone will give you a good idea of what to avoid... Now that being said the opinions on "Overhoning" have changed over the years, there was a time on SRP (go look) that every honing issue was met with a generic statement of "You probably Overhoned it" now it is more accurately met with a statement of "Are you sure the bevel is set correctly"...
Once you attempt to create an overhoned edge you will more easily understand why that is...

Not quite what you were hoping for I suspect, but I hope it helped

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bluesman7

I'll be following this thread. I had dismissed the pyramid idea early because I could see no logical reason for how it could possibly be any help to go backwards in a progression. I have all of the same questions that you have stated so well.

Now here is my only contribution. During a recent honing session I had set a bevel on a King 800 and progressed to a 3k Naniwa. After some time at 3k, inspection at 100X showed a chip that was large enough to warrant going back to the 800 grit stone. I believe the chip had been there all along and that I had just missed it when progressing. After some time on the 800 I again inspected to verify that I had removed the chip. The chip was gone, but the thing relative to this discussion was that the edge condition and scratch pattern was much more refined than it would have been had I just stayed on the 800 until the chip was gone without the step to the 3k. The backward step resulted in the lower grit stone behaving as an intermediate grit between 800 and 3k.

I plan on doing some more experimentation with 3k, 6k, and 8k grits. I have some thoughts about what is occurring. I'm thinking that the step back removes some of the irregularities of the edge without going back as far as the previous step, and then the forward step refines this more regular edge resulting in a higher degree of refinement than is possible with a normal linear progression. I will be honing another razor soon from bevel set up and try to have more to add to the discussion.

I saw a post that alluded to industry using techniques similar to this. The OP stated that the theory of why it worked would be more controversial than whether it worked.

---

So let me toss something out there, going with this idea of a more refined edge after you went back to the previous grit. Don't hate me for this, its just me tossing out an idea to see if it makes sense

Could it be possible that using the pyramid method, that it is not just a course grit scratch pattern being erased by a fine grit scratch pattern as you would see if you just progressed from your 800 to 3K using the progression method, but going back (as the pyramid would prescribe) it would be somewhat as if you worked on a succession of several stones going from 800 to 3000 rather than just the 2. For example, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000, but only using two stones as like a slow progression up to your final grit.

Or let me say it this way

15 laps on 800, 1 on 3K = ~800 grit
10 laps on 800, 3 on 3K = ~1000 grit
5 laps on 800, 5 on 3K = ~1500 grit
3 laps on 800, 10 on 3K = ~2000 grit
1 lap on 800, 15 on 3K = ~2500 grit
final 1 lap on 800, 15 on 3K = ~3000 grit

This is just an idea, feel free to shoot it down if it sounds like none-sense. But it would explain the "sneak up" to the edge philosophy.

I looked all over for it and couldn't find it in print, so maybe Lynn said it to me on the phone ? I don't want to put words in Lynn's mouth and then quote him ....... but it seems to me he either wrote or said of the pyramid method ....... "Nobody knows why it works, but it works." Personally I just do it ........ can't remember who said that. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I looked all over for it and couldn't find it in print, so maybe Lynn said it to me on the phone ? I don't want to put words in Lynn's mouth and then quote him ....... but it seems to me he either wrote or said of the pyramid method ....... "Nobody knows why it works, but it works." Personally I just do it ........ can't remember who said that. :)

---

Thanks Jimmy for the input. I guess I was just thinking that a round table like discussion might pull out some "Theories" as to why it works. Kind of like when you do a scientific experiment. You have a question. You know something works, but since you don't know why, you test it and find an answer even if it's what you think or not. And thus I am hoping someone has done such testing, or that some theories could be tossed into the pile for good thought and some good discussion and some wacked ideas can also be tossed out.

Yeah Jimmy I think I saw Lynn saying the same thing in one of his video's, and It's difficult to put into words why it works but I have to say I really like this method and all I can say it works for me, I like using it for refreshing a razor that's just going off the boil so to speak alternating between my 8K and 12K.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

Thanks Jimmy for the input. I guess I was just thinking that a round table like discussion might pull out some "Theories" as to why it works. Kind of like when you do a scientific experiment. You have a question. You know something works, but since you don't know why, you test it and find an answer even if it's what you think or not. And thus I am hoping someone has done such testing, or that some theories could be tossed into the pile for good thought and some good discussion and some wacked ideas can also be tossed out.

---

Sure, experimentation and analysis of results is always profitable. I have nothing but admiration for those who are so inclined. I'm just not wired to be one of them. :) I'll be following this thread with interest, hoping to finally find out 'why' it works. In the meantime, I'm just happy that it does.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

So let me toss something out there, going with this idea of a more refined edge after you went back to the previous grit. Don't hate me for this, its just me tossing out an idea to see if it makes sense

Could it be possible that using the pyramid method, that it is not just a course grit scratch pattern being erased by a fine grit scratch pattern as you would see if you just progressed from your 800 to 3K using the progression method, but going back (as the pyramid would prescribe) it would be somewhat as if you worked on a succession of several stones going from 800 to 3000 rather than just the 2. For example, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000, but only using two stones as like a slow progression up to your final grit.

Or let me say it this way

15 laps on 800, 1 on 3K = ~800 grit
10 laps on 800, 3 on 3K = ~1000 grit
5 laps on 800, 5 on 3K = ~1500 grit
3 laps on 800, 10 on 3K = ~2000 grit
1 lap on 800, 15 on 3K = ~2500 grit
final 1 lap on 800, 15 on 3K = ~3000 grit

This is just an idea, feel free to shoot it down if it sounds like none-sense. But it would explain the "sneak up" to the edge philosophy.

---

I was thinking along those lines as I was typing my first response and that seems a plausible explanation. I think that there may be something more going on though.

I definitely want to continue this discussion after thinking about it some more and hopefully spending some time with the stones.

As an experiment I plan on seeing if I can reach a higher refinement by going 800> 3k>8k>3k>8k instead of just a normal progression of 800> 3k>8k. I don't plan on a specific lap count but will be using magnification.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bluesman7

As an experiment I plan on seeing if I can reach a higher refinement by going 800> 3k>8k>3k>8k instead of just a normal progression of 800> 3k>8k. I don't plan on a specific lap count but will be using magnification.

---

Yeah let me know how that goes. I don't have much when it comes to magnification other than a 20x loupe unless I take the time to bring my razor to work to use the lab microscope (a real 400x), which would be terribly inefficient unless I can convince my boss to let me take it home temporarily. :hmmm: But I would say that the end refinement might be a little better if what we are thinking is true that the pyramid creates more of a gradual step to the final stone rather than the progression method. Because what I'm thinking is that the pyramid takes out most of the guess work of knowing when to stop lapping, unlike on the progression method where you learn by experience and/or observing the edge to know when to stop.

Or the pyramid at least makes it harder to overkill (overhone) the edge, if the inexperienced honer doesn't know when too many laps is too many and causes the edge to break off because they have honed it too thin. I'm thinking this because say you do 25 to 30 laps on a 8K and all that was needed was 15 or 20 that edge can be easily broken off and dull the edge, but if you are going back and forth from courser to finer during your pyramid method progression, you might be keeping that super fine "micro-burr" at bay. Or as in hunting, its easier to sneak up on a deer to make a shot rather than running up on it, stopping and making the shot. In the former you have more time to aim and place your shot because you haven't spooked the deer, while the latter is either hit or miss.

Now when I say this, I am taking into consideration Lynn's philosophy of less laps is more. Because its just common sense that if you do 150 laps (or whatever is too much), that too much is too much no matter what method you use. I'm just saying that an explanation for the pyramid being great for beginners is that by going back to the courser grit causes the dreaded overhoned edge more at bay more so than the progression method does. Because though the progression method will get you a nice fine edge in less strokes, the pyramid will get you there also but is also a lot more forgiving to the honer.

As another analogy, which is easier to wreck a car? Teaching a student driver how to drive by placing them on the Grand Prix at 100mph or on a gentle curvy back road going 15 mph. One is much more forgiving than the other.

What are y'alls (can you tell I'm from the South) thoughts on the matter?

i hope i'm not getting too much of the topic, but i'm still trying to understand how it's possible to overhone in the first place. as a noob honer i use the pyramid method (so far i have about a 70% success rate) but would it make sense that different hardness"s of steal require a different "size" of pyramid?

Here is an old thread, state of the art before a lot of the stones we enjoy today became available. Something like 80 replies to this old thread, how it was viewed 8 years ago :angel:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...y-pyramid.html

Dang Jimmy, you devil. You sure know how to throw a cat into a dog kennel

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

Dang Jimmy, you devil. You sure know how to throw a cat into a dog kennel

---

........ :rofl2: ......... that was a good one ! Just more food for thought in that thread. What the "old timers" thought about it way back when. :)


I thought Y'all would like that ........ :thinking:

Just because it works, besides, if it ain't broken don't fix it. Also it keeps a person from overhoning, and let's you sneak up on the edge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smyth

Just because it works, besides, if it ain't broken don't fix it. Also it keeps a person from overhoning, and let's you sneak up on the edge.

---

:gaah: :banghead:

Over-honing is too much pressure… not too many laps.

A Pyramid only works, if the honer uses less pressure the second time he goes to the lower grit.

We do this all the time sanding and buffing. You move to a higher grit and then see deep low grit scratches, so you go back and buff/sand them out. But if you stay too long on the low grit or use too much PRESSURE you just created more deep scratches, if you just stay on the high grit you use more pressure or stay too long on the wheel and burn the edge.

It is a pacifier for a novice honer, speeding up the process so they don’t get bored and resort to pressure.

Once you learn how and when to use pressure, you do not need a pyramid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Over-honing is too much pressure… not too many laps.

A Pyramid only works, if the honer uses less pressure the second time he goes to the lower grit.

We do this all the time sanding and buffing. You move to a higher grit and then see deep low grit scratches, so you go back and buff/sand them out. But if you stay too long on the low grit or use too much PRESSURE you just created more deep scratches, if you just stay on the high grit you use more pressure or stay too long on the wheel and burn the edge.

It is a pacifier for a novice honer, speeding up the process so they don’t get bored and resort to pressure.

Once you learn how and when to use pressure, you do not need a pyramid.

---

True. However, the pyramid is an awesomely effective technique as it is learned long-term. If I may, the first few long steps of the pyramid tells of laps, grits, to come. As working through the pyramid and knowing when to adjust and how, seems no different to feeling how to progress through a progressive regimen. JMO

Back to the OP....I'm really curious WHY you want to know WHY it works. It reminds me of my wife asking why airplanes can fly. I can explain it in general terms, but I don't really care to because they do (airplanes, I'm still talking about), so WHY is she asking? Please understand, I'm not picking on you or your post, I'm a new honer myself, but I have more curiosity about people's thought processes than I am about WHY a proven mechanical process works.

I remember reading somewhere that the Pyramid method is helpful, especially for Newbies, because it eliminates the issue of knowing when to move on from stone to stone. That is a difficult thing to master at first, and the Pyramid system avoids that problem. I started using it and found it very helpful, but there came a time when I could more easily tell when to move to a higher grit and now just go through a normal progression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Haroldg48

Back to the OP....I'm really curious WHY you want to know WHY it works. It reminds me of my wife asking why airplanes can fly. I can explain it in general terms, but I don't really care to because they do (airplanes, I'm still talking about), so WHY is she asking? Please understand, I'm not picking on you or your post, I'm a new honer myself, but I have more curiosity about people's thought processes than I am about WHY a proven mechanical process works.

---

Harold,

I'll try to explain it the best I can.

First of all it it part of my curious personality of where I want to know how the world works. That is the reason I became a scientist. So in short it is part of who I am to question why and how something works or at least try to obtain answers.

Secondly and lastly, I want to become proficient in what I do to the best of my abilities. I do know that the art will come with time, practice and experience. So I'm taking that off the table of my answer. A person who wants to become a diesel mechanic will go to school and learn the craft. They will learn the parts and tools, but most of all they learn how and why certain parts do what they do and how an internal combustion works. It is because of this why and how that engineers are the next year and the next year can build a better diesel truck. Because they can customize it because of their knowledge based on what conditions need to be met.

For me in my field of work. Knowing how something works allows me to come up with tests to diagnose a problem and create a solution in order to fix it.

Now if I may. When it comes to honing I'm just wanting to know just to know. It's part of who I am. Some me people are not like me in that sense and that is ok. For me I want to know so that I can be able to "see" what happens at least in my mind learn from it and be able customize my approach to whatever the situation requires instead of hitting and missing by shooting in the dark.

I hope that explains my sometimes overly complex thought process. Plus I want to understand what makes it so forgiving for beginners because if it was just structure, that could be done with the progressive method (which I'm beginning to conclude as just a more advanced approach to honing) by telling the homer "do this and then do that". But what I have seen with it was "here are the mechanics, now learn some experience and you will get there someday".

I've had some other thoughts. During a normal progression, say going from 5k to 8k, there is a point at the 8k level where the majority of the 5k scratches are gone and the 8k stone takes on a different feel. I think at this point material removal with the 8k hone gets very slow because of the increased surface area and lack of purchase by the 8k grit. The edge may benefit from more material removal at the 8k level but progress is impeded because of the polish of the bevel. Stepping back to the 5k at this point, which now behaves as being finer than 5k because of the higher surface area and lack of purchase, breaks the surface and allows more work to be done with the 8k hone.

The normal rebuttal to stepping backward in grit is 'I can see no benefit in putting 5k scratches on a perfect 8k bevel' the answer to that may be that we don't shave with the bevel but with the edge and if the edge can benefit from more material removal at the 8k level the easiest way to accomplish that may be to put some coarser grit scratches in the bevel.

Caveat, I have not used pyramid honing except by accident when going backward to hone out a chip and noticing some unexpected refinement in the edge. All of the above is just speculation as to what might be occurring. I do plan on experimenting with grit step backs in my next honing session but I do not plan on using a stroke count recipe as I think I can learn more by feeling my way through the process.

Without man's inherent curiousity I suspect we'd still be living in caves and wouldn't even have the wheel. Some of us are content with flicking the switch, watching the lights go on or off, while others need to know what creates that light. In many things I'm satisfied with flipping the switch, in some few I too go beyond the utility to wanting to understand how it works.

Regarding scratch patterns, when I began this honing journey I acquired a Norton starter set, a few ebay hollow grounds, and a few pro honed razors to have something to use, and to compare my efforts with the pro honed edges. At that time there was a lot of buzz on this forum about removing the scratch pattern from the previous grit before moving on to the next grit.

Upon examining my pro honed razors, which had proved to be the real deal, where the razor meets the jawline, I found that those pro honers obviously didn't worry about the scratch pattern removal. When the razor was ready, it was ready, and no simonizing of the edge was needed. So continuing with the pyramid method, I only used my magnification to check for micro chips and to be assured the bevel was correct, ignoring the scratch pattern removal.

Nothing wrong with the practice of removing the scratches from the previous grit if that is what floats your boat, but I found it unnecessary for achieving my primary goal of a shave ready razor. An old honer that used to be around here once said, as Ace noted in the post above, knowing when to stop is one of the prerequisites of expertise in honing. The pyramid method can assist in solving that problem for the neophyte honer. Maybe not completely, but to a great extent.

Something like seven years into it, I still use the pyramid more often than not if I'm starting from (no pun) scratch. Not always, particularly if I've set my bevel and decide to use naturals to get to the final objective. Charlie 'Yardbird' Parker, the great jazz saxophonist, is reputed to have said,"Master your instrument, then forget all that stuff and play." Honing is kind of like that for me, Not that I've mastered it yet, but I'm beyond the stage of where it is frustrating, and at the stage where I can view it as Lynn frequently says, as "have fun."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Haroldg48

It reminds me of my wife asking why airplanes can fly.

---

Well air moves faster on the bottom because there is less surface area and has to move slower on the wing top causing a low pressure or lift.... OH never mind:roflmao. I think that by Pyramiding you are creating less surface area for the higher grit to remove IE just the ridges of the scratch pattern. I also agree that once the edge is done the bevel does not need to look pwiddy....

Razor honing is one of those things, where there are a lot of variables and formula does not always work.

It is much like learning a golf swing, where all the variables must be taken into consideration and what works for one may not work for the next guy. That is why there are thousands of books written on how to swing a golf club.

The given is that most razors are not straight, we all have different stones and all of us have a different conception of pressure. Very few of us have the exact same combination and even then the razor itself and the driver will be different.

The goal of bevel setting is to flatten the bevels and get them to meet in a straight line, the edge. Then proceed in a progression of finer stones, to polish the bevels and straighten the edge for more comfort.

As we hone the grit creates stria, a land and groove or mountain and valley. The land and groove end in a jagged edge. The more we minimize the height of the land, mountain, the straighter the edge. That is the goal of polishing the bevel and edge.

The main problem for the novice is pressure, and creating Deep stria, from too much pressure. A Pyramid allows the honer to go back to the lower grit and with lite pressure reduce the land/mountain height. If too much pressure is used, the pyramid does not work and often does not for novices.

It is just a simple formula for the novice to try to better polish, if it works you hear from those that it worked for, until they calibrate the correct amount of pressure for their stones and razor. We don’t hear from the ones that it does not work for and give up.

For much of this hobby what you do next, depends on what the problem is, the honer must first diagnose the problem.
So when it sounds like it is mystic and you will only know by doing, is because of all the variables involved in the diagnosis, the largest of which is the razor... and the honer, (the unknowns).

The opposite of a pyramid and progression honing, is one stone honing, where you use one high grit stone to set the bevel and finish. The problem with that is again, pressure. For most it would take too long and then they would use too much pressure, in an attempt to speed up setting the bevel and straighten the edge.

Pyramid honing is simply a way to speed up polishing a bevel with a lower grit, by alternating grits with lite pressure, sometimes it works for the novice honer, sometimes it does not.

YMMV