Get in line!

I have a honing question that I hope y'all will be able to answer for me.

Background: I got in my new SG 20 K, and was really excited to bring it home to try it out. I thought that since it's the weekend I'm out also take this time to learn a little bit about my hones under the microscope. So I grab my laboratory microscope from work brought it home and set it up and started honing.

The magnification is at 100x. I done my normal routine using my Chosera 1k, Shapton 4K, 8K, 16K. Before moving to my SG 20 K, I tried to get the most out of my 16 K. I done about 15 strokes on the 16 K, and was afraid that I may have done too many strokes. I thought this because the edge it looked jagged. I went ahead and went to the 20 K and done 10 strokes just for learning sake. Then I looked under the microscope and examined the edge, And then done 10 more strokes. At this point I noticed something unusual. My Edgeline started tightening up. I done 10 more strokes, and looked under the microscope and noticed that my Edgeline was tightening up even more without any chipping. I've done five more strokes and noticed the same thing and called it done, And stropped the edge and test shaved. And the test shave seemed to have done very well.

However my question is not about anything to do with the test shave but rather has anyone ever noticed this tightening of the edge on this finishing stone using so many strokes and not seen edge failure. I would have thought I would have seen chipping but haven't yet. I will see over the course of a few shaves whether the edge is going to hold or not but do you think that I wasn't doing possibly enough work on previous grits?

Feel free to ask questions, because I feel as if I had I hard time getting my thoughts across well.

Any picks ??

Yeah. They are just not as clear as if they were in person.

1k
Attachment 196999

4k
Attachment 197000

8k
Attachment 197001

16k
Attachment 197002

20k-10 strokes
Attachment 197003

20k - 20 strokes
Attachment 197004

20k - 35 strokes
Attachment 197005

Stropped
Attachment 197006

I'm no pro, but that looks like some pretty deeps scratch marks after using your finisher.... I see a much smoother surface, almost mirror like, from my 8/12k... they look as deep as the grind marks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ecormier

I'm no pro, but that looks like some pretty deeps scratch marks after using your finisher.... I see a much smoother surface, almost mirror like, from my 8/12k... they look as deep as the grind marks

---

All the more to learn from. Like I said, I'm afraid I'm not doing enough lower grit work.

too many random scratches on that bevel IMHO. In your pics I can see a large scratch all the way from 1k to 20k, that should at least become a lot shallower over the progression.
I am not sure what tightening of the edge means, but 30-35 strokes on the hone does it for me. Some people have stated that the edge starts to over hone ~50 strokes, never tested it my self.

Well in y'alls opinion what would be the best course of action to fix the scratch problem? Go back to the 4k and work my way up again?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

Well in y'alls opinion what would be the best course of action to fix the scratch problem? Go back to the 4k and work my way up again?

---

Go back to the 1k and until the scratch pattern is uniform do not move up. From your pic at 1k your bevel is not yet set IMO.

For me the lower grits is where I fee the work is really done. My progression is somewhat similar to yours - Naniwa 1k, 5k, 8k, 12k and the Suehiro 20k. After setting the bevel (it's own task all together) I really put time in on the 5k and 8k steps. Then just 10-20 strokes on each are thereafter.

My guess is that your self diagnosis is right- more work setting the bevel and in the lower grits will mean less work for that 20k.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Substance

Any picks ??

---

And yes- Kentucky over Duke by 12.

:D
:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy77

And yes- Kentucky over Duke by 12.

:D
:)

---

Hahaha. :HJ Now that's how you hijack a thread. I'm for duke even though I don't get into Basketball. Lol. But back to point thanks yall for pointing out a problem that for some strange reason was not clicking in my mind. I guess so focused on one thing that I wasn't seeing the obvious right in front of my eyes.

You can see in the lower area of the pics that the bevel is not set.

The chippiness may also be due to the steel.. You don't say what make the razor is.

Yes, the bevel is not set, completely.

You can see in the 1K photos, that you are not reaching the edge.

There is also a “Rail Road Track” stria to the left (on the first Photo) and below a deep 45 degree stria in the center of each photo.
That stria should have been removed at 4K.

With each stone you are getting more of the edge but still not completely.

Re-set the bevel with ink and 1k with a bit of pressure, then re-ink and remove all the ink with the 4K. You bevel should straighten out at about 8K and be a bit straighter with each progression. More magnification will give you a better view of the edge.

I don’t really see a lot of difference in your photos, post 1K, from 8k on the difference should be dramatic, lots more polish and finer stria.
You may want to add a bit of pressure and check the corners of your stones, bevel or round them a bit. Alternating your finishing strokes from straight to heel leading with every other stone will quickly tell you if you are removing the previous grit’s stria.

As said depending on the steel, you may need a bit more pressure and do more laps.

I will follow along with your recommendations and do a bevel reset, even though I am confident that the bevel was set per your method of looking down on the edge at 20x under a bright light and seen no reflection (no pics of that). But what I think you might be seeing is a lack of focus from the scope and my phone, because with how the scope is setup I could not get the plane of the bevel and the edge to focus at the same time, this I can tell you that there is a possibility that what you are seeing is unfocused refracted light not the edge itself, because when I took these photos it was for me to compare each grit and not to examine the edge itself. The pics were only posted because someone asked and they were all I had. If I knew this was the direction that this thread would go I would have had focused pics of the edge. And it was a beast to get the phone to get a good focused pic looking through the eye piece since the slightest move even to touch the screen to take the pic resulted in loss of image and focus.

So though I disagree because you can only examine the only recorded visual evidence I have, I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt and say I'm very possibly wrong and willing to try again, because of my lack of experience and you all have many many more razors under your belt than I do (I have only done handful of sessions). Thus respectfully disagreeing but willing to go in there and try again and possibly (most likely) prove myself wrong.

Now as to the deep stria part. I am in full agreement and need to fix that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

Hahaha. :HJ Now that's how you hijack a thread. I'm for duke even though I don't get into Basketball. Lol. But back to point thanks yall for pointing out a problem that for some strange reason was not clicking in my mind. I guess so focused on one thing that I wasn't seeing the obvious right in front of my eyes.

---

At least give me credit for providing input on the post before!

I once read that you can't overdo bevel-setting (thought you can remove quite a bit of metal), and you also can't over-do the 4/5k step. While I've never gone to the extremes and tested the theory, it's something I keep in mind when I hone.

So long way to say I agree with most of what's been said.:hmmm:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

But what I think you might be seeing is a lack of focus from the scope and my phone

---

I did consider this as the focus is clearer towards centre & top. Nonetheless the roughness in the edge should be addressed by 4k unless as I said before it is the nature of the steel.

My suggestion to you for actually studying the scratches is to for each stone use a different honing angle so that the scratches from the previous stone run at a different direction. This will give you a better idea at how the work progresses.

good luck
Alex

1. What razor you are using?
2. Are your stones well lapped?
3. After lapping, are you rinsing the stones well? No slurry right?
4. You are wiping your blade after each stone right?

Bevel set
I assume you are using the Shapton GS series with the 16K mentioned. I've been using the GS series for a while now and from what you are showing me is a pressure issue. The gs stones are quite aggressive and I have a few suggestions for you. When honing on the 1K, after bevel-set (whatever method you use as long as you know it's effective), I want you to start hand honing. NO holder, just the stone in your hand from 4K up. This will help to train you to not use so much pressure.

Pre-Polish
WHen you move to the 4K, it shouldn't take many strokes at all. If you reach 30, most likely you have gone too far...but at 4k it is no issue. What the gs series offers is superb feedback and if you are paying attention you will start to notice "stiction" or a drag of the razor going over the surface of the stone. Once you notice it evenly on both sides (normally around 15-20 strokes), do 2-3 more and move to the 8K.

Polish
On the 8K, again...it shouldn't take many strokes at all. If you reach 20, you most likely have gone too far. You should start to notice the "stiction" around that 10-15 strokes...again: Once you notice the "drag" evenly on both sides, do 2-3 more and move on to the next stone.

Finish
Now, here is something else: pick one or the other. For me personally, I have moved my 16K to the bathroom to use as a barber hone (best barber hone ever!) and my 20K is with my stones. The 20K is a super fast stone like the GS stones and you will get the same feedback. Once you notice the "drag" evenly on both sides, do 2-3 more and stop. I don't care what razor you are using, if you are going over 20 strokes, you are just wasting steel and most likely your edge.

You are using some great stones & with a bit of learning their feel...you will become a great honer in time. Let the stones and razor tell you what they need. If you wish, pm me your phone number and we can talk a bit to help you along.

Inking the bevel will quickly tell you if you are reaching the edge.

You may be right, it is hard to diagnose a problem from a photo, but either way, you are not removing the previous stria and do still have 1k stria post your finish stone, which leads me to believe it is not too much pressure issue, it is too little pressure at low grits or too few laps.

So ink it and re-set the bevel on the 4k with circles, it should not take long, as the bevels are already flat, circles will quickly remove the 1k stria. Ink will tell you if you are reaching the edge.

Worst case, you are close.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shooter74743

1. What razor you are using?
2. Are your stones well lapped?
3. After lapping, are you rinsing the stones well? No slurry right?
4. You are wiping your blade after each stone right?

---

1. A Dixie mfg co. Vintage, either a 4/8 or 5/8

2. To the best I think I can. Minimum 2 grid laps if not 3 using a worn DMT 325

3. Yes. Rinse, wipe with hand under stream and final rinse

4. Yes after each set of laps I would wipe and to clean the edge better I would do a few palm strops

and thanks for the offer I need all the help I can.

And Euclid, I went ahead and tried to do a bevel reset, and done 2 very light breadknife strokes on the corner of my Chosera 1k. And spent probably 3 hrs trying to set the bevel and I hit a wall trying to focus on my pressure since I think that was where my problem lies. That is the reason it took so long plus writing down EVERYTHING I did. The wall was I kept seeing this super fine line under the light and 20x loupe but yet I was passing all the other tests (TNT, pioping arm hairs with ease all across the edge, and I think the TPT though I'm still calibrating). So I went to the 2k in hope that I could get both the stria and line to disappear. Well the stria did but the line remained. After another hour on the 2k ( granted I was using almost no pressure On the 2k), I thought "well maybe I'm seeing a "mirage" of a line rather than an unset bevel, thus I went on through my progression to the 8k being very careful to remove all previous stria. I got a good test shave off the hone with no stropping so I thought I would move on. Got great results on the 20k so I stropped tested then shaved. Now granted I shave my head and had about 2 weeks worth of growth to go through. But before I got there my face ATG was cutting but not so well by the time I got to my head the end of the shave was uncomfortable. And when I was done some of the edge would still pop hairs some would not. Disheartening. So obviously the line was not an imagination. And I paid for it.

Here are a couple of photos of an edge that with a not fully set bevel.

Alex


http://www.thejapanblade.com/images/notfullbevel.jpg

http://www.thejapanblade.com/images/notfullbevel2.jpg

And photos of using alternate stroke direction so you can check your progress from stone to stone.

http://www.thejapanblade.com/images/...evelphoto1.jpg

http://www.thejapanblade.com/images/onestonetrail1c.jpg

What is the ink on the bevel showing, are you reaching the edge?

So what is the grind of the razor?

If the razor has a full hollow grind, and you are using too much pressure, you could be lifting the edge off the stone.

There is an unusual pattern at the top of the bevel, away from the edge, where it could act as a fulcrum and raise the bevel off the stone.
Ink will tell you how much pressure you need to get the bevel flat on the hone and if you are reaching the edge.

An extra layer of tape will correct for a worn spine and hone more of the edge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Euclid440

What is the ink on the bevel showing, are you reaching the edge?

So what is the grind of the razor?

If the razor has a full hollow grind, and you are using too much pressure, you could be lifting the edge off the stone.

There is an unusual pattern at the top of the bevel, away from the edge, where it could act as a fulcrum and raise the bevel off the stone.
Ink will tell you how much pressure you need to get the bevel flat on the hone and if you are reaching the edge.

An extra layer of tape will correct for a worn spine and hone more of the edge.

---

Oh yes sorry the ink is being completely removed all the way to the edge after a few strokes.

Yes it is a full hollow

I don't want to have to use tape. No reason; just don't. But if the line doesnt go away soon I will be.

Cannot figure out what's going on here:

All from Chosera 1k at 100x
"Toward me" stroke
Attachment 197157

"Away" stroke
Attachment 197158

"Away" stroke
Attachment 197159

Noticeably on the toward stroke I've used too much pressure but my away stroke is stumping me. The 2nd photo is from around the middle of the blade and doesn't have the stria to the end with some weird scratches. While the 3rd photo is close the the end of the blade where the stria is getting to the apex without the weird scratches. No matter what I do they will not go away. I'm poping arm hair pretty good but not like I would like at that point. Is this a bevel set issue? :shrug:

Your stroke may not be allowing for a warped blade but yes pressure is preventing edge contact... I think.

This morning I decided to try something different and got some very interesting results. I inked my bevel. I took my Chosera and laid it in my left hand and done a single aft and fore x-stroke in order to assure the lightest of pressure as suggested by shooter. What I saw was that on the aft stroke the ink only in the center of my edge was being removed while the outsides was being untouched. I was thinking that it would have been the opposite and that the center was just not being touched. I was wrong. I'm going to do this a few more times in order to see if this is consistent. But if it is consistent it would appear as mentioned above that the moderate pressure that I was using on this possibly warped blade was pushing the apex off of the stone not allowing me a solid bevel set.

If this is true I would think that several super light x-strokes like I mentioned might slowly work the bevel like it should. What do you think? My fear is to produce a frown, which I want to avoid at all costs.

I think I figured out the solution. I was still on my Chosera 1k and no matter how light I went I never could get that even stria all the way to the edge. It was always that weird scratching right at the apex that I could not get rid of. And I especially was having difficulty getting a very small spot about a cm above the heel. So in a last ditch effort I put on some tape and done 20x super light x-strokes. And what I found was that the weird scratches were gone. I have a tiny microbevel right now but the scratches are gone and the stria are reaching the apex. That little spot near the heel was still there so I gently added some focused pressure and now I have stria all across the apex and its poping hairs nicely now.

It's deffinitly true that honing is easy till it ain't, but one thing I have learned is that you learn the most when it's hard not when it's easy. Now for me to progress easily. Don't want to ruin all that work. :p

Thought it was warped.
People rarely have trouble with a true blade.

The paradox of honing is that light contact will put you on the edge whereas heavier contact will put you behind it onto the bevel. That can be needed, to thin a bevel some but after that it's just diminishing returns.

By adding a layer of tape here you are mimicking light pressure but the correct stroke was the crucial factor in getting edge contact.

So, I stumbled on this thread again, this morning and took a second look at your micrographs.

Are you sure, you uploaded the correct photos, because photos 2-7 look identical, all the stria on the bevel and the location of the razor are identical, no change to the stria after 4k,8k,16K and 30 laps of 20k.

And as said the location of the photos on the razor is almost exactly, the same. I mark the location with a reference, dot of sharpie ink and even then, it is impossible to locate a photo in the same spot, close but not that close and certainly not 7 times.

It looks like you have a series of photos taken at the same time, at the same spot. The angle changes, slightly, but not the position.

How is it shaving now?

Wow it has been a while since I even looked at this thread. Shaving now has gotten better since I've had more time to learn. But as to the original pics with the setup that I was using it is really easy to find the exact same spot on something as linear as a bevel. But what helped me out so much was those identifying deep stria that I never removed in my progression. I was using a standard binocular laboratory microscope with a movable stage. That's why I could find the same spot all 7 times.

Actually a lot of the time when I use a scope, I'll set up a little blade fixture so I can get the exact same place under the scope every time. It's not super necessary if your honing is consistent along the edge, but it's always nice to see the exact same place progressing along.