Side Stroke, Side Honing Revisited?

Side Stroke, Side Honing, Vibratory or Vibration honing revisited.

First this thread, in some ways is not new, (some of this has been discussed before here), is a bit long and may create some confusion. But this is a bit different than what has been discussed before. It is in theory an advanced technique, which is why, it is posted in Advanced Honing forum. I welcome your thoughts, do give it a try it is simple and non-destructive.

A while back, I posted a thread, “Hone a Straight Edge or to a Straight Edge?” Where I interpted a technique that Iwasaki wrote and Jim Rion translated, in his essay on honing and described a finishing technique in, ("Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori").

My question, is Iwasaki describing a breadknife/jointing technique or a horizontal stroke, up and down, parallel to the edge, with the spine and edge flat on the stone? At the time, I though he was describing, a jointing technique to straighten the edge. I am still not sure which technique he was describing.

Opinions were divided, as the description could either be a jointing or side honing technique. I began researching the possibility of Iwasaki describing Side Stroke Honing or what the Japanese call, Vibration Honing, a horizontal stroke, as shown in Takeshi-San video, (Takeshi-San (at about 200 on the video) linked here and in the thread.

In watching videos of Japanese honers honing razors, and narrated in Japanese, described as Vibration or Vibitory Technique, moving the razor up and down heel to toe, a millimeter or two at the finish stone level. Here is another video of the Vibration technique.

In the original thread, I posted a video of Alex Gilmores finishing a razor, (at about, 620) with a jointing technique similar to what I envisioned, but he also discusses the possibility of Iwasaki describing what Alex calls “Parallel Honing Strokes”. Alex’s video has some good micrographs of his process and his findings. In further searching the technique, there was a reference to the Harreson Stanley’s Side Honing Method, using a jig for tool sharpening and this is not that.

So, recently I was finishing a razor that I had removed a shallow but wide chip, where the customer had hit a faucet. The chip was easily removed but upon stropping the edge, micro chipped where the chip damage had been.

I re-honed the razor (8 and 12k), and was about to go to the 20k. I noticed some random deeper 12k stria, common to Super Stones, when they begin to load up. I would normally, lightly re-lap the 12k with a 4k stone and re- set an even stria, 12k bevel and a straight edge.

Except this time I had been thinking about the Vibrating/Side Honing technique. So without lapping or cleaning the stone, I did 5 horizontal strokes with about 10mm of travel on each side, blade flat on the stone and looked at the bevels. Most of the 12k stria was removed, except some of the deeper stria, probably 75 percent of the 12k stria was removed.

Another 10, side stroke laps at about a 45 degree angle, so the whole blade fits on the stone, all vertical stria was removed, leaving just lite horizontal stria, no vertical stria from any previous grits and a polished bevel and straight edge.

I finished with 21 more of Alex Gilmore’s Ax laps on the 20K, (10,5,3,2,1) and 5 more finishing, Side honing, heel/toe horizontal laps, with lite pressure and 5-6 mm of motion, leaving a very nice polished bevel and straight chip free edge. I stropped 100 laps on leather and test shave the razor, very clean and crisp edge.

So what’s the point?

Recently in another honing thread, a new honer having an edge problem that in the end came down to deep stria from a low grit 220 stone and too much pressure. He spent a few days sorting it out, but in the end, removed all the deep stria and got the razor to shave. I though this might be a way for new guys, to easily remove deep stria and set and polish a bevel quicker and chip free.

It is not just, the Side Honing method as Harrelson Stanley described, but more of a combination of regular stroke honing and removing the stria perpendicular to the edge, with a side honing technique, then moving to the next grit in the progression and lay down new stria and side honing that stria from the bevel and continue with each stone, all the way to the finish stone, (not just the finish stone as Iwasaki did).

To test the theory, I took a Norton 1k, my most aggressive 1k stone and a razor that had been hand sanded and without a bevel.

I quickly set the bevel in 21 laps, with the Ax technique, often described as half lap honing. I lightly jointed the edge on the corner of the 1K stone and re-set a sharp edge, in 11 laps, (5, 3, 2, 1 series).

I then did 10 horizontal heel/toe vibratory/side honing laps with a bit of pressure, about 10mm of movement up and down and all the 1k vertical stria was removed. I proceeded to the 4k using the same technique on each stone, Half lap & side honing, and continued through the progression, 4,8,12 and 20k.

The whole process took 10-15 minutes and left a very nice keen edge with no deep or random stria and a very straight edge.

In many ways, it is like circle honing on steroids, avoiding the diagonal stria common to circle honing, and extra pressure can easily be applied to the heel or toe, if needed. Smiling edges can use a rocking motion to completely hone the entire edge smoothly.

In essence, after establishing a set bevel, you lay down 1k stria, then remove it with side honing, then lay down the next progression stria and remove it, side honing and continuing in the progression to the finish stone. Since then, I have honed several razors using this technique and all have quickly produces keen, chip free, straight shaving edges.

Give it a try and post your thoughts.

I've been finishing on a Naniwa 12k with a few V strokes with very good results. Not quite side honing but I think the same idea and benefits.

looks like something else for me to try!

Interesting technique. Are the vertical stria are removed more quickly by the perpendicular/horizntal motion of the vibration method than by doing the same thing (tiny strokes) in the vertical direction? Thanks.

Yes, in about 10-15 strokes, using a 5-10 mm stroke, depending on the grit, higher grits are more easily removed so I used a shorter stroke. If use in progression, you get the benefit of the grit without the stria, so theoretically, you should get a straighter edge and much quicker.

When you move up you have no vertical stria to remove, just some lite horizontal stria.

I don’t know why they say to use a 1-2 mm stroke for the vibration technique, they also only use it at final finish, so regular vertical honing is doing all the stria removal.

Great thread Euclid.
I cannot see the point of bread-knifing in order to get rid of the teeth left by a lower grit hone. I think you effectively remove them anyway by simply moving up the grit ladder. I made 2 drawings hoping to show my point. The metal on the right side of the red line is the metal removed by bread-knifing. After bread-knifing you have to remove the metal outside of the green lines with a higher grit hone to get a sharp edge again. Simply moving up the grit ladder gets you to the same point IMHO. With bread-knifing you risk removing more metal than you strictly need to get a keen edge. Less is more if you like.

So this is not Bread Knifing, the first thread covered the Jointing technique where the point was, to shape a straight edge first, then bring the bevels to meeting at the new edge. True Bread Knifing is more of a heavy edge correction to remove a chip or reshape an edge as in heel or toe correction.

In theory it sounds like you would remove more material by Jointing, but in practice you remove less metal, because while honing the bevels you are doing 2 things at the same time, 1, shaping a straight edge and getting the bevels to meet.

And 2, you are not removing as much metal as the diagram; it is just the ragged edge that will get removed by one or two lite jointing strokes, no matter how you do it, that same material from the chippy edge must be removed. Regular edge forward honing will remove at least, the same metal or more, because you cannot see the edge while honing, unless you inspect after each stroke, most do too many laps and remove more metal than needed trying to straighten the edge,

With a Jointed edge, you have more control over the edge and the amount of metal removed, even though, the amount is minimal.

The side honing technique is a quick and easy way to remove deep stria that leads to a chippy edge, early in the honing process and with each progression.

Thanks for the Great post (and concise responses).

From my perspective (as an amateur who only hones his own razors) I tend to think that Iwasaki was referring to side honing technique rather than a jointing technique, mostly because I would considered that a jointing action would run to much risk of damaging the freshly honed edge (I do concede however that these are the words of a master with a masters hands and that it is conceivable that he meant (and had skilled enough hands to practice) a jointing technique to straighten and improve the final edge).

I feel you work here tends to support the idea that Iwasaki was referring to side honing. You mention that finishing on a particular stone with short, light(er) side strokes removes the stria. If the stria are removed from the bevel they must also be removed where they meet (and traverse) the edge. Doing side strokes on both sides of the blade gives you the same net result as a jointing stroke (with regards to reducing the ruggedness of (i.e. straightening) the edge), without the very high risk of dulling the edge that comes with jointing.

I can think of a couple of speculative ideas why the side strokes are said to be only 1-2mm long, but I think it would mostly come down to maintaining light even pressure. Longer strokes may risk too much variation in pressure along the blade which would be adverse to the final edge.

I had previously read the posts (including yours) on jointing and then re-setting a bevel when bevel setting and understanding the merits of doing so, with the second bevel set being done with fewer strokes, leading to a less rugged edge, thereby giving the best foundation for the rest of the progression. However, I have never done it as I fear that my hands aren’t steady enough to straighten the edge without damaging it.

I look forward to incorporating the side stokes (as a proxy for jointing) into each stage of my honing progression in future to see what the results are.

Thanks again for a very thought provoking post.

The videos I watched refer to the process as "joining". The purpose of which I believe is the removal of the initial extreme saw tooth edge left from setting the bevel, so you have a more even line of metal to proceed with.
The side to side strokes make sense, much like hand sanding a blade, you cross your scratch patterns to more effectively remove previous grit marks.

is the joining (holding the blade perpendicular to the hone or on the edge of the hone) done only after setting the bevel or at every grit? or does the vibration method take its place at every grit?
And when is it done, after x strokes or in place of?

Yes, jointing is perpendicular to the stone and can be done any number of ways, typically I and others, lightly drag the edge of the razor on a corner of the stone (from the upper vertical side to the side of the stone) or on the corner of the bottom edge (as the stone faces me) from the face to the bottom side, or as Alex demonstrated in his video, on the stone face.

Keep in mind these are very light (weight of the blade) strokes that allow the edge to be quickly recreated, with few strokes.

The traditional Japanese Vibrating technique was only used at the final finish stone.

I am doing Side Honing, with longer strokes, at each stone. Once the vertical stria is removed, I move to the next stone in progression.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Yes, jointing is perpendicular to the stone and can be done any number of ways, typically I and others, lightly drag the edge of the razor on a corner of the stone (from the upper vertical side to the side of the stone) or on the corner of the bottom edge (as the stone faces me) from the face to the bottom side, or as Alex demonstrated in his video, on the stone face.

Keep in mind these are very light (weight of the blade) strokes that allow the edge to be quickly recreated, with few strokes.

The traditional Japanese Vibrating technique was only used at the final finish stone.

I am doing Side Honing, with longer strokes, at each stone. Once the vertical stria is removed, I move to the next stone in progression.

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E.

Thank for the topic and I am excited by your system. You have taken up the use with synthetics where Iwasaki-san had only just begun.

I think that you are finding out that stones cut faster and remove previous scratches faster than most people have been able to observe. With your progression of stones you are with just a few strokes, removing the previous scratches more easily partly because the side strokes are perpendicular to the previous scratches and the stones grit is a bit finer than the one before it. This is good technique.

If anyone here has a copy of the Iwasaki brochure in the original japanese form I would like to have a reproduction of it for a fresh translation.

best regards,
Alx

JimR, a member here (although much less active in recent years) and who’s blog can be found at (Eastern Smooth ) made the translation referred to in the OP. He would be the one I would contact (via the blog) if I was looking for the original Japanese text.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

My question, is Iwasaki describing a breadknife/jointing technique or a horizontal stroke, up and down, parallel to the edge, with the spine and edge flat on the stone? At the time, I though he was describing, a jointing technique to straighten the edge. I am still not sure which technique he was describing.

Opinions were divided, as the description could either be a jointing or side honing technique. I began researching the possibility of Iwasaki describing Side Stroke Honing or what the Japanese call, Vibration Honing, a horizontal stroke, as shown in Takeshi-San video, linked here and in the thread.

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The relevant section is called Edge Finishing, not Edge Jointing :)
You can't create "another false edge" by too much pressure when jointing. You can create a secondary bevel or destroy the edge with pressure so to my mind, there is no doubt that Iwasaki san was talking about a sideways honing stroke.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

The relevant section is called Edge Finishing, not Edge Jointing :)
You can't create "another false edge" by too much pressure when jointing. You can create a secondary bevel or destroy the edge with pressure so to my mind, there is no doubt that Iwasaki san was talking about a sideways honing stroke.

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I agree, the nature of jointing it to bare the fresh steel behind the false or feather edge and that it does not by its very nature create a new false edge. And I agree too that it was most likely Iwasaki's intention to pass on the idea of sideways sharpening as a step to refine the edge. When I brought up the joining/jointing idea a while ago in regards to Iwasaki-sans pamphlet it was in part to encourage a discussion about the finishing times that Iwasaki was putting forth. Below is a paste-up of that part of the pamphlet. I tested it out myself and found that the sideways sharpening movement of 1 to 2mm for 10 to 15 minutes impossible and it didn't seem like a natural movement that took too long. Probably the same benefits can be gotten in a lot less time. Just my take.

Below is a cut and paste from Jim Rion's translation of Iwasaki-sans pamphlet.

Alx


3-Honing Time

Many people think that when they hone on coarse abrasives, they should spend a lot of time, then
gradually reduce their honing time as they move to finer honing. However, in reality, the opposite is
true: they should be gradually increasing the time. When you hone with pressure on coarse
particles, you not only remove chips in the edge, but also wear away the steel of the spine and
blade. Honing time for both Kamisori and razors should be divided as follows:
(1) Coarse honing - Botan Nagura - 3-4 minutes
(2) Middle honing - Tenjou Nagura - 4-5 minutes
(3) Finishing - Tomonagura - 5-6 minutes
(4) False Edge removal - Raxa hone - 10 seconds
(5) Edge Finishing - Honyama Hone - Japanese made folding razor 10 min; Kamisori/Imported
Razor/Iwasaki Razor 15 minutes.

In the above, most people might not notice that the final step, "Edge Finishing," takes 10-15
minutes. But when you try it, it will become clear.

Yes, I too now believe, Side Honing or Vibration technique is what Iwasaki was describing, based on the amount of time described in the process and that there was no mention of re-honing, as one would do after Jointing as Utopian posted in the original thread.

Though, Jointing does produce good results, especially with chippy edges.

And yes, 10-15 mins of no pressure Vibration Honing is impossible to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alx

I tested it out myself and found that the sideways sharpening movement of 1 to 2mm for 10 to 15 minutes impossible and it didn't seem like a natural movement that took too long. Probably the same benefits can be gotten in a lot less time. Just my take.

Below is a cut and paste from Jim Rion's translation of Iwasaki-sans pamphlet.


(5) Edge Finishing - Honyama Hone - Japanese made folding razor 10 min; Kamisori/Imported
Razor/Iwasaki Razor 15 minutes.

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Certainly 15 mins would destroy the edge on a Dovo or similar but look at point #5 & then think on how hard these razors are, even regular J/razors. I think I mentioned elsewhere you have to extrapolate the times in a backwards direction for other razors.
15 mins even seems a long time for an Iwasaki western but I've yet to try that technique on one. The last one I did was NOS & took very little time to make ready on a finisher. :)

Old hat.

around 10+ years ago when I was selling Tosuke's I had a long lost video of Tosuke himself honing a kamisori and he uses that slight side to side motion while moving forward and backward in the final finishing process. personally I've always done that with kamisori though I've never tried it with western razors.

it really does work.

Spendur, have you got a link to that video?

No it's long lost. The last time I saw it was over 10 years ago or more.

Spendur,

This is an aframestokyo video, but I think it shows what your describing. To save time the approximate 9 to 11 minute mark probably shows the best.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eFMHWpi9gdc

And another without much movement toward the ends of the stone.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6R7zsGj0FEA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

The relevant section is called Edge Finishing, not Edge Jointing :)
You can't create "another false edge" by too much pressure when jointing. You can create a secondary bevel or destroy the edge with pressure so to my mind, there is no doubt that Iwasaki san was talking about a sideways honing stroke.

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I'm glad someone else finally sees this. I had no success arguing against the jointing claim.

I have played with the described side honing and the most difficult part of it is to limit the stroke to the suggested length of 1-2 mm. This is much shorter than strokes I have seen in videos.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

No it's long lost. The last time I saw it was over 10 years ago or more.

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Thank you Spendur. I did hesitate before asking my question but decided to do so because I did not quite understand the meaning of "long lost" within its context. I thought you were saying you had lost it for a long time before being able to provide it to punters for your Tosukes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I have played with the described side honing and the most difficult part of it is to limit the stroke to the suggested length of 1-2 mm. This is much shorter than strokes I have seen in videos.

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I wanna know how to do it on a warped western razor :p

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

I wanna know how to do it on a warped western razor :p

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Me too, the method will just not going to work well on those. May be it was designed for kamisori only?

Easy!
It's just a rolling 50 micron side stroke.
:gaah:

Thanks for posting. I have been doing this for some time now with small yet noticeable results.

I have tried this a handful of times and to me it is just another way of putting the final polish on an edge, no more, no less.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

I have tried this a handful of times and to me it is just another way of putting the final polish on an edge, no more, no less.

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Exactly. This was originally a kamisori technique and was used in the final stages. I don't see why it wouldn't work with western razors you just have to modify a bit to suit the circumstances.

If the shorter 2mm side stroke (as opposed to 10mm) is critical, it seems to me easier to accomplish holding the razor stationary and moving the stone.

I enjoy holding the stone in hand, and was just relaxing abit with a Carborundum 101 when I thought about this thread and gave it a try. Short strokes were really hard- on impulse I tried moving the stone instead of the razor- marked difference. I just stopped typing and tried it again- first impression is that the larger mass of the stone helps with the tiny strokes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Exactly. This was originally a kamisori technique and was used in the final stages. I don't see why it wouldn't work with western razors you just have to modify a bit to suit the circumstances.

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If you have an edge with no smile and a honing plane slightly longer than the edge it would be the same thing for asymmetrical and symmetrical grinds alike, I would say.

This method is fun and challenging, for the last couple months I have experimented with it in my finish runs, it does help straighten an edge and longitudinal flattening occurs fast in slurry in earlier stages, I like it a lot and talk about a polish. :rock: Pithor, you were right about the grinds, with a little finesse much can be accomplished.