The difference in 4k bevel setting and the differences to look for.

Well I'm officially new to the whole 1-4-8 progression.. It seems like everything I've learned using naturals and barber bones isn't much help, my strokes are even longer and the feedback is much different but still a 1-4/8 seems fairly straightforward..

I've only attempted 2 razors while didn't shave well at all, and feel silly that I can get a great edge using other methods but the easiest method I don't know squat about. So I develop a white line at the edge looking from the side of the razor.. I feel like once you see this you are SOL (overhoned) and must reset the bevel. That's all fine and dandy except. The tests I have come to be fond of don't respond the same to a 4k bevel set. I would rather use the 4k and save steel but have no clue what I'm looking for, sensation wise.

I have only had these naniwas for a day so I didn't excpect to nail an edge.. But to at least get something shaveable...

What are the main differences between a 1k and 4k bevel set. How do you know the bevel is set on the 4k? Because at th 1k I can pop hair a few mm above skin but after 4k nothing.. Because the edge gets smoother? Less toothy? And that sharpness won't come back around till 8k?

No expert, but when I see a thin white line at the edge I take it to mean I have not honed out to the edge. Maybe lighten up on the weight applied while honing on the 4K hone. Are you using a Nani 3K hone?

Bob

I never use the above the skin test until 8k as it can be unreliable before that. At skin level there should be a difference between a 1k and 4k with less effort to cut and even more so at 8k, for my hair, tree topping starts at 8k and will top even better after my finishing stone and the CrOx paddle.

Which stones are you using and did you lap and round or bevel the edges well. Some need to be lapped a couple times to get a good edge.

Sounds like you do not have a bevel set edge and are only getting a partial set at 8K, this is not uncommon. Photos would help.

First get good magnification, lighted 60X and make sure the bevel is fully set from heel to toe, and use ink to ensure, the bevel is completely flat. Looking from the side will tell you if your edge is straight and chip free, but not if it is fully set, (and meeting).

Here is a good post (My first honing attempt with photos) very similar to what you are asking. Post 41 shows what a fully set bevel looks like. Look straight down on the edge. Hair test are hit & miss.

A good, properly prepped 4k can absolutely set a bevel quickly, but if you have to do repair a 1k is quicker and can often save metal when used properly, as odd as that sounds…

Clarify please what these hones are. Naniwa does not make a 4k as far as I know.

Naniwa gouken Hayabusa and Fuji. Not very common but a 4k and 8k stone.

Y'all learn something new everyday. Not any difference between them and the regular naniwas I don't think.. Just made for Japanese market.

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Originally Posted by rodb

I never use the above the skin test until 8k as it can be unreliable before that. At skin level there should be a difference between a 1k and 4k with less effort to cut and even more so at 8k, for my hair, tree topping starts at 8k and will top even better after my finishing stone and the CrOx paddle.

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See I'm not used to the tree topping only at 8k. Usually it has been much earlier but I was using other methods. Thanks rob! I know I'm not crazy. I'll arm hair skin level at 4k and then after 8 tree top. Going to use Lynn's circle method.

Mostly I just wanted to know how to tell when a bevel is set on a 4k

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

Naniwa gouken Hayabusa and Fuji. Not very common but a 4k and 8k stone.

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OK then, they are not what a lot of people use on here. Most use Nani SS or Chosera type hones in that progression. Not may may even know what to expect from them. OTH I still think you have not honed to the edge either by too much weight or the bevel was not really set on the 1k first.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

OK then, they are not what a lot of people use on here. Most use Nani SS or Chosera type hones in that progression. Not may may even know what to expect from them. OTH I still think you have not honed to the edge either by too much weight or the bevel was not really set on the 1k first.

Bob

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Okay i'll go back and reset the bevel.. In regards to my naniwas.. I think really most naniwas preform the same regardless of what line they come from. They aren't anything to dump a working set of hones for. I just have never owned quality water stones. That being said I have used Norton 4/8 and Naniwa SPecialty briefly, never learned. Same type of feel. I just have never really practiced this method. I'll try setting the bevel on the 4k... I'll knock the edge on a jointing stroke.. I know I am done setting it when.... ?


The TPT wouldn't be as sticky would it? Would I feel for a more refined edge?

What would the TNT feel like?

This is where i was headed with this thread. Not how to get a razor shave ready with a 4/8 k waterstone, that can be read in the million other threads regarding it.

I've never set a 4k bevel before...

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

I've never set a 4k bevel before...

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Neither have I....maybe someone will come along who has.:shrug:

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

What are the main differences between a 1k and 4k bevel set.

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Might be 45 minutes, might be a couple of hours ..... . :) Use the same procedure with the 4k as you do with any bevel set. Thumb nail test, shaving leg or arm hair, and especially examining the edge under magnification. Doesn't have to be a high power microscope, a 30X eye loupe is what I have, though you could do it with less.

Here is a link to 'Alternative Honing Approaches' in the SRP Library, It is pretty much from an email that Randydance sent to me to answer my newbie questions on bevel setting and pyramid honing. He said, in another conversation, that you can set a bevel with the 4k, just takes longer. Sometimes significantly longer. Depending on the blade.

Honing - Alternative approaches - Straight Razor Place Library

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

Okay i'll go back and reset the bevel.. In regards to my naniwas.. I think really most naniwas preform the same regardless of what line they come from. They aren't anything to dump a working set of hones for. I just have never owned quality water stones. That being said I have used Norton 4/8 and Naniwa SPecialty briefly, never learned. Same type of feel. I just have never really practiced this method. I'll try setting the bevel on the 4k... I'll knock the edge on a jointing stroke.. I know I am done setting it when.... ?


The TPT wouldn't be as sticky would it? Would I feel for a more refined edge?

What would the TNT feel like?

This is where i was headed with this thread. Not how to get a razor shave ready with a 4/8 k waterstone, that can be read in the million other threads regarding it.

I've never set a 4k bevel before...

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Ok, whatever you want to do. Regarding Naniwas nobody ever said they were worth dumping a working set of hones for or even inferred it. Wondering where you were going with that? Can't say for sure if the different lines of Naniwas all behave the same or not having only used one line. If the edge is good then I'd imagine all the tests would feel the same as with other hones but I just go by what the edge looks like magnified by a loupe.

There must be something in the millions of threads on honing with a 4/8K waterstone that say how the honer determines if a blade is ready to move on up the progression. People use different methods probably. Can't see how setting a bevel on a 4K is much different from setting it on a 3K just might take a tad longer on the finer hone. Just get the bevels to meet all along the apex.

Bob

Impossible to say, TPT is only learned or “calibrated” by feeling a lot of known edges. A set bevel is sharp enough to cut through the first layer of skin with just a bit of pressure. But even a fully calibrated, TPT will not tell you if the edge is “fully” set and/or if there is chipping at the edge. Feel some razor blades and utility blade and compare.

I use a combination of test, some hair test, for progress, TPT and visual tests for conformation with magnification, looking straight down for meeting bevels and from the side for chips and deep stria (that can lead to chipping.

Looking at an edge is the most comprehensive test.

Only looking at the edge straight down, with magnification will tell you if the bevel is completely set, has a chip and if the bevels are fully meeting from heel to toe. But it takes time and can be a pain in the butt to stop and look.

As you gain more experience you will need less visual testing and TPT will tell you if you are heading in the right direction, experience will fill in the rest, but it takes time to develop these skills.

I usually check visually, looking straight down before moving up in grits, once it has passed the TPT as a confirmation, looking for anomalies. Here less magnification is better,60X or less and as little as,10x or in good light the naked eye, once you know what to look for. With less magnification you can see more of the edge at time. At 400X, it can take a while to check a whole bevel looking straight down on it, you don’t need that much magnification to spot a problem,

The photos linked to in post 4 will show you what to look for.

Once you see an issue, more magnification may tell you what is causing the problem.
And there is a difference in the stones, or Naniwa would only make one stone, not all stones are capable of honing razors. Stones are made for different uses, and while all 4k stone may contain abrasives of up to 4k size, how the binder releases the grit to refresh the stone can play as important a roll as the grit itself.

Razor honing is a very small part of the honing/stone market, and we make do with the small portion of the stone that work, most do not. The vast majority are made to sharpen a variety of tools. Really when we look at the stones that are proven performers, the list is very small.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Stones are made for different uses, and while all 4k stone may contain abrasives of up to 4k size, how the binder releases the grit to refresh the stone can play as important a roll as the grit itself.

Razor honing is a very small part of the honing/stone market, and we make do with the small portion of the stone that work, most do not. The vast majority are made to sharpen a variety of tools. Really when we look at the stones that are proven performers, the list is very small.

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That is the real deal. All the synthetics were made to hone plane blades, chisels, and other tools. Some of them happen to work with razors. Some better than others.

You can set a bevel on a 4K stone but a 1k is way faster, like 10x's faster. Once you get to where you think you're done setting the bevel try shaving some arm hair, go back to the stone do 10-15 more light finishing strokes and try cutting arm hair again, does it cut easier? If so do a few more, at some point it will stop getting sharper, take note of how it cuts. Make sure it cuts along the entire edge wit the same amount of ease. Make sure your hone is lapped. When the hone doesn't seem to be cutting as effcientoy as it did when you freshly lapped it, lap it again, it will clear the swarf and expose now sharper particles. When your edge is starting to come together stop lapping, the resulting bevels will smoother and leave you less work on the next hone.

Once you start reliably setting the bevel honing becomes less frustrating and more rewarding. When you move to the next grit in your progression make sure you have gotten all the scratches out from the previous hone. Don't move on until you do. You will really get the hang of it after 30-40 full bevel sets and complete honings.

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

I've only attempted 2 razors while didn't shave well at all, and feel silly that I can get a great edge using other methods but the easiest method I don't know squat about. So I develop a white line at the edge looking from the side of the razor.. I feel like once you see this you are SOL (overhoned) and must reset the bevel.

Not really. A shiny line can be an incomplete bevel. You will not easily see it at 1k as all the scratches can hide the reflected light. You can also develop a slight convexity at the early stones that will become obvious at the finisher when the bevel is shinier ie the edge is not honed straight away, especially if your pressure is too heavy. Hone lighter than you think you need too & the edge will always sharpen up.
White line can also be a burr, small or otherwise. Often cleans up on the next stone. Hard to assess any of this without a good loupe .

I have only had these naniwas for a day so I didn't excpect to nail an edge.. But to at least get something shaveable...
Yeah , Nahh ... :) going to synthetics from natural has its challenges too.

What are the main differences between a 1k and 4k bevel set. Bevel set or edge restore ?
How do you know the bevel is set on the 4k? A bevel set simply means the next stone will improve the edge,regardless of stone used.. The 4k will show your faults at the 1k & the 8k the same of your 4k
Because at th 1k I can pop hair a few mm above skin but after 4k nothing.. As above. popping hair does not mean the bevel is optimal. You have to determine what it means to you, like the infamous HHT.
Because the edge gets smoother? Less toothy? And that sharpness won't come back around till 8k?
I'm curious. Strop your edge at 4k & see what happens.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

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Oz, thank you very much. That cleared up a lot of what I was wondering.. That white line along the edge showed up at my 8k which I was finishing on.. I really feel the shaves from edges that I have developed this on are extremely rough. I've got a loupe but really find when I rely heavily on scratch patterns I get this white line.

As to the edge restore or bevel set. I mean I get a crappy shaving edge and want to start from ground 0 so I joint and now I want to hit the 4k to set the bevel. If the bevel is really mangled I'll hit 1k without a doubt.. I mean a light bevel reset.

I'll have to try another razor and shave off the 4k.. I took that razor on a trip with me this weekend and brought no back up razors... Uh oh.. I killed the edge and used the two barber hones I brought along to whip up a shave ready edge. I digress,

I've got the perfect razor at home that needs a bevel set on the 4k.


Once again thank you.

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

Oz, thank you very much. That cleared up a lot of what I was wondering.. That white line along the edge showed up at my 8k which I was finishing on.. I really feel the shaves from edges that I have developed this on are extremely rough. I've got a loupe but really find when I rely heavily on scratch patterns I get this white line.

Sometimes a few light strokes on the 8k or finer can remove it , sometimes not. Depends on its causation

As to the edge restore or bevel set. I mean I get a crappy shaving edge and want to start from ground 0 so I joint and now I want to hit the 4k to set the bevel. If the bevel is really mangled I'll hit 1k without a doubt.. I mean a light bevel reset.
I did a restore on a kamisori other day & found the bevel was not set at the toe. I went back to 2k but the wear on the blade meant I would have to remove a lot more steel . I muted the point which saved creating a lot of wear. You do what you gotta do.

I'll have to try another razor and shave off the 4k.. I took that razor on a trip with me this weekend and brought no back up razors... Uh oh.. I killed the edge and used the two barber hones I brought along to whip up a shave ready edge. I digress,

I've got the perfect razor at home that needs a bevel set on the 4k.


Once again thank you.

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No probs . :gl:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

No probs . :gl:

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I was under the assumption there was some special voodoo magic about 4k bevel setting. Funny, now it's just like a 1k bevel set only the edge is more refined so some of the felt tpt sensations will be different(of course). I think I just haven't tpt a 4k edge in my life or an 8k edge but I'm very fond of my 1k and finished edge tpt sensations, this is where my trouble lies.. Lookie here.. I'm figuring stuff out :)