Why kill an edge

A quick back story.

I purchased a custom razor from SRP member Frans awhile back. Upon receiving, the initial and subsequent shaves were beautiful...like NO other razor I have in my stable, be it new, used, rehoned by myself or by others. It was amazing. Fast forward a lot of shaves (I shave daily), I felt it needed to be touched up. I contaced Frans to ask him his honeing/stropping, because it was such a fantastic shaver. He, in fact, shot a quick video of him honing. So, out came the 4/8K and 12K. I went to touching it up as I normally do (taped, like Frans did), then onto the strop. However, it just wasn't up to snuff, even compared to any of my other razors I have honed. Fast forward, I contacted Glen (GSSIXGUN), who suggested I kill the edge, hone, repeat maybe 3 times. He said he has run into brand new custom razors, upon rehoning require the edge to be killed a few times. OK, that's what I did...Killed the edge on glass, then to 4K, 8K, 12K, then stropped....then repeated the same 2 more times. Test shave and viola...What the heck?!?! It WORKED! It shaved beautifully! Not that I doubted you, Glen. But, it just don't make sense to me. How can a razor that shows ALL outward signs, from ink, to hair popping, to feel on the hones, etc., etc., etc., yet shave badly. Yet, after 3 kills and hones, it shaves as smooth as greased glass?

Here's another example. I received another model of one of Frans custom razors, not too long after the 1st one. This, too, shaved wonderfully right out of the gate. When time for it to be touched up, I thought, "I'll try my way 1st. 1 and done." NOPE, it pulled like a freight train. So, yesterday, I went to Glen's 3 Kill method. 3 kills and hones, then to the strop. This morning I used it and that one, too, worked as the other. It was heavenly!

There was a guy on SRP years ago named Bart, from Belgium. A coticule connoisseur, and said to be quite a honer.

He was the first person I ever heard to suggest dulling the edge on a water glass. In that case it was so the honer was starting from zero and wasn't getting 'false positives' in his sharpness tests as he progressed in the honing.

Not to contradict Glen, he has undoubtedly honed way more razors than I have, but, having tried it once after Bart posted the suggestion, I've never 'killed' an edge since and so far so good. Interesting that it worked so well for you.

If I ever run into that situation maybe I'll give it another try. :)

Bart was by no means the first...

In fact there are many old barber's hones / stones that show the corner cut marks from them "Killing the Edge"
It is also a tool sharpening trick, we all act like we invented the wheel, it simply isn't true we adapt ages old concepts to our use, sometimes things that were used by ages old SR users..

Killing the edge on many of these new customs works because the original edge was over worked to begin with so you want to get past that steel

Never did understand the concept as to why/how it works but over the years have run into a few that just wouldn't 'pop' to coin a phrase for Glen. You can hone and hone on one with no results then kill the edge a time or two and 'Bingo' shaves like a dream.....go figure!

I heard a theory from an old tool maker that applies to new plane irons and I think new razors as well: During heat treatment the edge gets hotter than the body which leads to a harder edge after the quench. Essentially about 1/32 of an inch at the edge is over hardened. If honed immediately then you will get a smooth edge, but the next honing will relieve the stress in the edge and the blade will be chippy. You then have to keep honing until the over hardened (chippy) edge is removed. Killing the edge just speeds up the process and three to five kill/hone cycles will get you to the properly hardened metal.

That was his theory and I just follow his advice: If a new blade gets chippy, kill it and hone back the edge a hair.

Interesting- as when I started to learn, I'd get to 8k, after shaving arm hairs at 1 and 4, and most every time the edge would die and I'd kill it and start over - presto, seemed to get a great edge.

Finally after doing things twice, I killed the edge before I started, and smooth sailing since. I read somewhere that aside from getting new steel, it also has some "joining" effect...I have no idea, still a novice, but works for me....:-)

Interesting!

I'm in the middle of muddling my way through a Tuckmar that was NOS, and just does not want to form a nice edge to the bevel.

I can get it to shave okay, but never at the level of my other razors. Fresh off the hone it feels more like a razor with a week and a half under its belt.

Having spent a lot of time looking at the edge in between honing I've come to the conclusion that the edge might be over hardened due to evidence of likely chipping on the very edge of the bevel. Also in some areas the material near the edge looks like it had suffered corrosion at a micro-level. So I'm now taking off material from the bevel until I can get to shave off the 1k. The more material I take off using the 1k, the better the edge of the bevel starts to look,confirming my gut feel that was telling me I need to find fresh steel.......... If I eventually succeed then I'll be in 100% agreement with the 3 killed edge technique!

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I see this often on customs, that may be harder that production razors. It may be the heat treat, over heating the edge, work hardening or aggressive use of belts.

I also see this, when doing edge restoration, where a bit of the edge has been removed as in large chip removal. And with new honers. where low grit stones, Diamonds or lots of pressure and/or laps, will “overwork” an edge or cut deep into the steel.

Diamond plates are notorious for cutting deep and weakening the steel below, (even after the stria has been removed) and, I suspect some of the newer aggressive Ceramic belts can do the same. The razor may shave well, but maintenance stropping flexes the weakened edge and it eventually breaks off, causing a micro-chipped edge.

When I encounter this, I remove the micro-chipped edge and re-set it. Once the bevels are flat and in the proper angle, it is quick and easy, to bring the bevels back to meeting. As said sometimes the edge will have to be remove 2-3 times, the amount of material removed is still, microscopic.

How you remove the edge does not matter much. Running it on glass or other hard surface, rolls the fin and honing cuts it off, jointing on the corner of a stone, cuts the edge off cleanly, or you can also just hone it and eventually the edge will be removed, or add a layer of tape and create a micro bevel or new higher angle edge.

I like jointing on the corner of a stone, as I believe it is cleaner, quicker and leaves a straight edge that just needs to be brought back to meeting, a matter of just a few laps,10-15.

I often kill/joint an edge before going to the finish stone and reset on the finish stone, for a stronger edge.

If making a micro-bevel, try adding a layer of clear packing tape, it is thinner than electrical tape and stronger than scotch tape, that also works. Packing tape, (the clear one, not reinforced) is slick and very strong.

Exactly why this edge chipping occurs, I don’t think anyone knows for sure, Removing the edge and re-setting it is the cure.

My guess is that it both gets rid of a chippy edge and gets to better steel.
The times that I have killed an edge come from seeing chippiness on the edge when I have finished my regular honing routine to 16k.
I use an aprox. 500x scope to look at my edges. Once in a while the edge still looks chippy no matter what I do or how long I do it. Killing the edge and going back a step or two on the stones, then working back to finish has pretty much always worked for me in bringing back the total smoothness. Only on the rare occasion where there is deep pitting and really bad steel does it not work.

Pete <:-}

This thread is very helpful. Thanks Gents.

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Just a warning for new honers:

This is a tool in the box, an arrow in the quiver, and is mostly used for specific reasons

If you "Kill the Edge" "Joint" or "Downstroke" whatever the name De Jour is you better know how to hone and set a bevel to bring it back... It is more of an advanced technique


So you've been warned :p


Thread moved to proper forum at the same time :)

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Originally Posted by JHBBlade

Interesting!

I'm in the middle of muddling my way through a Tuckmar that was NOS, and just does not want to form a nice edge to the bevel.

I can get it to shave okay, but never at the level of my other razors. Fresh off the hone it feels more like a razor with a week and a half under its belt.

Having spent a lot of time looking at the edge in between honing I've come to the conclusion that the edge might be over hardened due to evidence of likely chipping on the very edge of the bevel. Also in some areas the material near the edge looks like it had suffered corrosion at a micro-level. So I'm now taking off material from the bevel until I can get to shave off the 1k. The more material I take off using the 1k, the better the edge of the bevel starts to look,confirming my gut feel that was telling me I need to find fresh steel.......... If I eventually succeed then I'll be in 100% agreement with the 3 killed edge technique!

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

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Was it a Cell Rot razor?

Some of the Tuckmar scales were notorious for cell rot. If so remove the scales or the rot will continue and can spread to other razors.

If cell rot, continue removing the edge until and if, you get to solid steel.

I've recently learned this. After Glen told me about it and me forgetting (CRS), then another gentleman here told me the same thing a couple weeks ago (Sorry, CRS again), I've now learned that when restoring a blade this has helped get the edge I'm looking for. I've honed and honed to no end and not come out with an edge like I want. Then after killing a couple times, it comes out like it should.

Thanks for the thought Euclid440. I had no idea what cell rot was until you mentioned it now. But no, the remarkable thing is that the Tuckmar blade is very clean and free of rust. All of the original grind marks are perfect and shiny. . There is only about a 1/8" little streak of corrosion that I've seen several times on Silversteel which generally is not a cause for concern. The part of the bevel that had a tiny hole corroded through it was not inline with that corrosion. There was also no corrosion on the non bevel area, only in a small portion of the bevel.

I'm quite grateful for the small chip/hole in the bevel, as it helped me make the decision to remove more material on what seemed a very clean blade. As gssixgun points out, you don't want to be overzealous and remove a lot of steel for no good reason.

Took off about 1/50" to remove the hole in the Bevel. It looks considerably cleaner, and more consistent than before, all along the full length of the blade. Ran out of time to finish, will only tackle it this coming weekend.

I know from what I can see on my better razors with a 100x Carson scope what I'm aiming for. Think I'm now 80% there on this one.



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So if you kill the edge you need to start back at 1k bevel setting ?

Nothing much to add, except that dulling an edge on glass (1-3 strokes, until it loses all cutting ability) will effectively dull the edge, but doesn't kill it; you can pretty much bring it back to where it was before dulling with a decent stropping.

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Originally Posted by Legday69

So if you kill the edge you need to start back at 1k bevel setting ?

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Yes but as Glenn noted this is an advanced trick or a contest trick.

So yes after rolling the edge to worthless on a water glass you will be resetting the bevel
commonly at 1K. A new blade or very hard blade that chips does need to have its bevel
set on a water stone with a light smooth touch that is unlikely to start fresh chips.
DMT slabs can be a bit harsh on hard easy to chip steel. A lot of slurry methods are
great at not starting fresh chips and cleaning up old chips.

The sides of a lot of old hones are full of side grooves from rounding a french point
or sharpening fish hooks. You cannot catch fish on a dull hook as easy as you can
with a sharp hook. I do not like some french points and calm the point.

The other aspect is that setting a bevel correctly is uncommon.
Many factories finish their razors on rotating hones by hand and do lift
the spine so it is not aligned with the edge and not aligned with the
bevel to the edge. Even tape can upset getting the geometry exactly right.
Three bevel sets early in the life of a good blade should do it.
Old blades with hand honed geometry who knows.

By way of example my first razor and hone... twenty+ years of honing
with a Belgian water stone. The razor and the hone grew to like each other.
The hone was a little sway back but the geometry of the steel and hone
exactly matched.
Had I sent the razor to anyone else to hone it would have required a lot of work.
Had I kept using it all would have been fine.
But then I bought a second razor and a second hone (Norton combo) and
the two old friends were unhappy for a while. It took months to get the old razor
to match a flat 4K or Belgian waterstone hone a little. It took a 1K hone and some
other magic with film on glass to get things to 100%.

If you have a lot of hones and many razors flat is necessary.
If you have one good hone and one good razor... what works is fine.

So skip the water glass and hone as if you need to set the bevel at 1K or 2K.

So if you kill the edge you need to start back at 1k bevel setting ?


It depends on how you Kill the edge, how much pressure you use, how you do it and why.

The job of a 1k is to grind the bevels flat, in the proper angle and get them to meet at the edge.

if you are doing as Jim stated in the 2nd post, and you are doing a fully honing, maybe. But it probably will not take may laps on a 1k, or a 4k should do it. I often reset bevels on a 4k, unless they are new or damaged.

If you are removing the edge because of edge chipping, after honing and need to remove a bit of the edge to get to solid steel, No. Drop down to an 8k and reset the edge. The bevels are already flat and in the proper angle so getting them to meet should only take 10-15 laps.

If you are killing an edge on a finish stone, to strengthen the new edge or remove microchips, kill/joint it on the corner of the finish stone with a single stroke and reset the edge in 10-15 laps on the finisher.

You are just removing the fin to straighten the edge, so it is easy to get the bevels to meeting again, because they are already flat and in the proper orientation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Just a warning for new honers:

This is a tool in the box, an arrow in the quiver, and is mostly used for specific reasons

If you "Kill the Edge" "Joint" or "Downstroke" whatever the name De Jour is you better know how to hone and set a bevel to bring it back... It is more of an advanced technique


So you've been warned :p


Thread moved to proper forum at the same time :)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

So if you kill the edge you need to start back at 1k bevel setting ?


It depends on how you Kill the edge, how much pressure you use, how you do it and why.

The job of a 1k is to grind the bevels flat, in the proper angle and get them to meet at the edge.

if you are doing as Jim stated in the 2nd post, and you are doing a fully honing, maybe. But it probably will not take may laps on a 1k, or a 4k should do it. I often reset bevels on a 4k, unless they are new or damaged.

If you are removing the edge because of edge chipping, after honing and need to remove a bit of the edge to get to solid steel, No. Drop down to an 8k and reset the edge. The bevels are already flat and in the proper angle so getting them to meet should only take 10-15 laps.

If you are killing an edge on a finish stone, to strengthen the new edge or remove microchips, kill/joint it on the corner of the finish stone with a single stroke and reset the edge in 10-15 laps on the finisher.

You are just removing the fin to straighten the edge, so it is easy to get the bevels to meeting again, because they are already flat and in the proper orientation.

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This is exactly why I posted the warning above,,,

Not often I read something that lights a bulb. This one set off a whole series and explained a couple things that have mystified me for years. Thanks Glen et al.

I have used this technique pretty much since I started honing razors. I learned it from Bart's site and use it for different reasons at different times. It is not difficult or magical. I don't agree that this is an advanced technique but such matters are not up to me.

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Originally Posted by Legday69

So if you kill the edge you need to start back at 1k bevel setting ?

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Thank you all for answering I'm just trying to store info , I don't hone yet , I was advised against starting to soon so I'm just trying to learn for later

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Originally Posted by Legday69

Thank you all for answering I'm just trying to store info , I don't hone yet , I was advised against starting to soon so I'm just trying to learn for later

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I will only ask, can you walk and chew gum at the same time? I never subscribed to that ridiculous notion. And, you don't even have to shave and hone at the same time. :rofl2:

or drive a truck,,its pretty easy,, just jump in,, but knowing how to shave will help you with knowing what an edge is like,, but on topic ,, I don't know that its killijg an edge so much as lining it back straight like Euclid said "jointing" and it may not be an advanced technique but some new guys get carried away with it Tc

I agree with TC. It's not rockect science we're doing here. However, one HAS to know what a sharp/keen/smooth (whatever you want to call it) feels like, BEFORE you learn how to finish a razor.

In all honesty, here's how I 'learned how to hone:

I had several of my Father's SR's, from when he barbered for a living. I sent one off to a real Brick and Mortar business to be honed. Then I 'honed' another of his SR's. Comparing the 2, I adjusted my 'technique' until I achieved the same 'feel' as the 'professionaly honed' blade. I then sent 3 other SR's to SRP members who had a reputation of being top notch honers. Now, I have 4 SR's honed by people who know what they are doing, to compare my own abilities to. It took several hours spent leaning over hones to get to the point I feel I can properly hone. But, it is a never ending learning process. Everyone has thier own 'taste' as to what is a smooth shaving SR. But getting several others 'tastes', I developed a feel for what, on the average, a 'good shave felt like.'

IMO, once a person learns proper shaving technique, if he wants to, jump into honing. Go for it. Yes, there is a learning process. Yes, you will mess a few blades up, so don't "learn" on an heirloom razor. Ebay is full of 'learners.' IMO, the biggest thing is, you have to have a model to judge your own abilities. And be willing to accept and learn from your failures.

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Originally Posted by Longhaultanker

I will only ask, can you walk and chew gum at the same time? I never subscribed to that ridiculous notion. And, you don't even have to shave and hone at the same time. :rofl2:

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I'm not sure to take your comment as being a rude smart ass or not , but I'm new to something and if someone with much more experience gives me advice I tend to listen and if he may happen to be wrong with his advice then I'll figure it out eventually it's not that big of a deal all the same I'm just trying to learn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Legday69

Thank you all for answering I'm just trying to store info , I don't hone yet , I was advised against starting to soon so I'm just trying to learn for later

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You will but do know that the economics of a worthy set of hones will justify a large number
of professional honings and a spare razor before you get the skill to match the hones.

First invest in a better than average strop.

Also if you have a razor that shaves well you only need a good touch up hone (10-15k or so).
Touch up honing is not discussed enough.

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Originally Posted by Legday69

I'm not sure to take your comment as being a rude smart ass or not , but I'm new to something and if someone with much more experience gives me advice I tend to listen and if he may happen to be wrong with his advice then I'll figure it out eventually it's not that big of a deal all the same I'm just trying to learn

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You want to learn honing a straight razor? Watch the videos, pick up the razor and stones, and start honing. That's how you learn, not by waiting. Whether refreshing at the high end or bevel setting at the low end, pick up the gear and start. By waiting you only grow old and still know nothing. Get after it. Yes, it's not rocket science, nor is it mystical black arts.

As to being a smart ass, no offense taken. When you're trying to kill a sacred cow, you just kill it.

I kind of wish I had foresight to realize what was going on the last time I used this. There was a small chip in the blade, I figured I'd do a quick light stroke in the side of a barber's hone and reset it. Barber's hone because it would remove steel not just roll the edge like glass. Kill edge and reset mostly for experimentation.

At the time, my train of thought was that I had shot myself in the foot because all of a sudden that itty bitty chip had become rather large, and there was a new chip a bit closer to the toe. Again, very light stroke, I could barely feel the blade contacting the hone. In retrospect, I probably uncovered and removed steel that would've flaked off and made life a nightmare as it slowly chipped away over several normal refreshing sessions.

Mashal, im dealing with almost that same thing. I put it down and will come back to it. But i got two irritating type shaves from a razor i love and use a lot. I took a good look at it with a loupe and found the tinyest chips. Close to the heal. Killed the edge and started honing back at 1k. Chips got bigger and more of them. Them killed the edge again and again and the chip kept multiplying. I put it down and will hope i can get it under control. I really enjoy this razor but if its going to crumble apart on me, maybe i should just put it way for looking at.

I havent given up on it yet. Will try some more times to get it squared away but its not looking good for it.

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Originally Posted by Gasman

Mashal, im dealing with almost that same thing. I put it down and will come back to it. But i got two irritating type shaves from a razor i love and use a lot. I took a good look at it with a loupe and found the tinyest chips. Close to the heal. Killed the edge and started honing back at 1k. Chips got bigger and more of them. Them killed the edge again and again and the chip kept multiplying. I put it down and will hope i can get it under control. I really enjoy this razor but if its going to crumble apart on me, maybe i should just put it way for looking at.

I havent given up on it yet. Will try some more times to get it squared away but its not looking good for it.

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Should we rule out an uneven bad heat tempering? Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Gasman

Mashal, im dealing with almost that same thing.
....
Chips got bigger and more of them. Them killed the edge again and again and the chip kept multiplying. I put it down and will hope i can get it under control. I really enjoy this razor but if its going to crumble apart on me, maybe i should just put it way for looking at.

I haven't given up on it yet. Will try some more times to get it squared away but its not looking good for it.

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The temper might be a bit hard or uneven for the blade to chip like this.

Try honing with one or two layers of electrical tape on the spine.
If you have a way to measure the razor, figure out the bevel angle.

If the spine is too thin the steel angle might be too thin and fragile.
A very hard temper will have steel a brittle as glass but hard.

No DMT in my experience they chip hard steel.

Perhaps no hone coarser than 2K.
Light strokes.
Circles and "japanese" strokes -- ten back and forth strokes without flipping without adjusting the spine and edge.
Flip and ten on the flip side, ten, ten,ten, ten, five, five, five,five,two, two, two then normal slow
deliberate smooth finishing strokes.
By keeping the razor on the hone I find I can get smooth but rapid strokes with light pressure.

Always rinse and wipe the hone and razor so no coarse bits are on the surface.

Chips are frustrating be gentle.

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Originally Posted by Legday69

Thank you all for answering I'm just trying to store info , I don't hone yet , I was advised against starting to soon so I'm just trying to learn for later

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Good advice, learning to shave with a straight can be hard enough and is not for everyone. Concentrate on good shaving and stropping technique, you can easily get 50+ shaves before needing a re-hone once you sort that out.
Jointing an edge is not always necessary, more for troublesome razors or ones that haven't seen a hone in a long time.