JNAT Triboluminance:or Pizzaelectric Effect

Have any of you Jnat honers experienced triboluminance or Piezoelectric effect when honing with a Jnat or any other natural stones?

The other day while finishing a razor on a Nakayama kiita Iromono, I noticed when flipping at the end of a stroke a yellow/orange Triboluminance as droplets fell from the razor and hit the stone. The drop would light up and either dance across the stone to the edge on the sheet of slurry water, like a spark or break up into smaller droplets and then splayed out across the stone in random pattern like a firework.

The effect only occurred as the drop hit the stone.

I have never experienced this with any other stone, but have with this stone in the past. I don’t think I could photograph the effect, without a high-speed camera.

From what I can gather it is a Piezoelectric effect or Triboluminance and commonly seen as a parlor trick when crushing sugar candy, or striking two quartz crystals together.

I have not tried to reproduce the effect, with this or other stones and was wondering if it was this particular stone, slurry combination, the lighting or all three. The slurry was pretty thin.

Anyone else noticed this?

Marty-I have very little experience with JNats, having only owned a few Shoubodanis, but I watched in wonder as this happened when I honed on them. As I recall, the effect became more pronounced towards the end of a nagura progression as the slurry broke down finer and the tiny bubbles would race around like that. I thought that it had something to do with changes in surface tension, but that's probably over-simplistic. Part of me also thinks it might have something to do with charged particles as well, but more scientific minds could probably explain it better.

Either way, it is one of the more interesting phenomena I have encountered on a hone. (Great-now I want another JNat!).

As I am honing a batch of razors today, I often get into a contemplative/zen sort of mood (the kind where you just want to put some Chet Baker or Miles Davis on the blue-tooth and drag out every hone you've got lol!). In that vibe with my Chosera green brick over the sink, it just occurred to me that I have observed the same effect on my Zulu Grey, whose composition reminds me somewhat of a Jnat. After all, aren't both of a similar geological origin in that they are both sedimentary rocks created under enormous pressure on ancient sea-beds? In fact, my Zulu has the imprint of a fossilized piece of seaweed.

More food for thought. Now back to the sink.

edit: Okay, while finishing an edge at the sink it just occurred to me that I used to get the same effect on my PHIG, also a sedimentary rock (which I haven't used in awhile, though it's a very fine one that gives up awesome smooth edges). Time to get it out again and confirm. :hmmm:

New phenomenon to me. Sounds like we should start honing in the dark.

It is actually kind of cool.

The droplets look like molten steel when they hit the stone and shatter or shoot off the face of the stone to the edge. When they shatter, it is like a mini firework starburst the color of fire works, orangeish yellow.

Sounds amazing..

Attachment 320906

WE NEED PICS!

There's a lengthy discussion of this phenomena on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboluminescence

And a whole bunch of stuff on Google, including videos:

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=...sclient=psy-ab

I have seen those images on line, What I see are not blue flashed they are orange yellow and it is the droplet as it hits the stone and I assume the reaction continues as the shock wave rolls across the wet stone to the edge or the energy of the wave decreases. The reaction is pretty long compared to the videos of smashed mints.

I expect the color is a result of the kind of crystal, most of the high-speed photography is done with candy, sugar crystals. There are some videos of quartz crystals rubbed together producing a similar color of yellow orange.

The cause is not fully understood but has something to do with the energy in the crystals as the partials collide and release energy on a molecular level. In this case a drop of thinned slurry colliding with the sheet of thin slurry on the stone face.

I will try to see if I can replicate it and take a video. I do not always see this, and I suspect it has a lot to do with this stone, the consistency of the slurry and the lighting. I was not homing in the dark, it was during daylight, in the shop with regular shop lighting.

I have tried several times to reproduce the effect, without success. I do not recall which Tomo I was using, I literally have a dozen on my bench and 4-5 that are the usual suspects, most frequently used.

I recall the slurry was thin, though do not recall how thin. Or if it was a blend of tomo, I often use a thin blend of Diamond and tomo, by thinning Diamond slurry and adding Tomo depending on the feel of the slurry and if I am polishing or resetting a jointed edge.

So, it may be difficult to re-produce intentionally. I have seen the effect several times, though never paid attention what may have cause it.

I am almost always experimenting finishing, though most of the process is similar, but constantly changing to keep interesting. Once you have a post 8k edge, it I easy to try new or different things and if it does not work, you don’t have to go back far, usually to Tenjyo slurry to refresh.

If I do see it, I will try to take a video.

Now that I am aware of this, I watched it for the first time yesterday on my Shobu... never noticed it before, but it happened several times, like a drop of water was mercury and lightning combined, speeding across the stone. Pretty wild!

is everyone that’s seen it using plain water orwater with something in it, like soap, etc?

Steve-As I said in a previous post, I have seen it on 3 different stones whose main commonality is that they are all sedimentary rocks. I was working a milky slurry on each stone. As I recall, the phenomenon chiefly took place towards the end of a slurry progression when it was breaking down and the blade was getting "close" but not quite sticking yet. No soap or any other substance was involved, just slurry.

IIRC, it was most pronounced on one of the Shoubodanis I used to have, and I think was more readily apparent towards the end with the last two nagura. As I've been meaning to get my PHIG back out anyway, I may play with it and the Zulu to see if I can reproduce it in a short video. Though I found it bemusing, I guess I just assumed that it must happen with everyone on similar hones in similar conditions. And since it is something connected to physics, I am certain that it actually does. Maybe some don't notice it because they are focused more on what the blade is doing? IDK. :shrug:

In any event, I will consider this my honing homework for the next edge I finish.

Slurry and water for me... nothing else added.

Yea, plain water and worked slurry.

Liquid mercury is a good description for how it acts, but is orange yellow in color.

Hmmmmmmm

Me thinks somebody is taking advantage of the Legal availability of Pot in Cali :D

I will let you know if the "phenomena" occurs at the Spokane meet or the Denver meet if I get to go :rofl2:

Saw it again with a hard Asagi and thin Tenjo slurry, a ball of mercury is a good description with a tail like a comet. It just rolls across the stone.

I did not have my phone handy to make a video. The slurry was thin and worked. When I tried to flick slurry from the razor on to the stone it created the effect but was more of a slow roll and the effect was not as long lasting.

When caused by honing the small droplet seems to shatter into multiple drops as it hits the stone face and starburst like lightening at times. It only lasts a fraction of a second, so one would have to be recording already to capture it on video.

I’ve sen the ‘ball with a tail’ a number of times but can’t say that I’ve noticed light - I’ll start to pay more attention!

I've seen it when opening a Bandaid strip sleeve. It is blue/green in this case but never realized that's what it was till I looked it up. Never seen it with a stone or at least never noticed it. I'll have to check next time I use nats. I don't have any jnats but it would be interesting to see if a coti or thuri produces it. If it's related to slurry then Arks are out but that may be an interesting experiment to see if it is related to slurry.

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Originally Posted by Steve56

I’ve sen the ‘ball with a tail’ a number of times but can’t say that I’ve noticed light - I’ll start to pay more attention!

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I too have seen this but gave it no mind.
It looked like the surface became waterproof and a ball of slurry rolled across the stone.
No lights though... No voices either ;)

I've never seen anything like that, obviously I am doing it wrong.
I want to see it too :cry:

I have seen the "balls of mercury." Never noticed a tail really nor have I noticed luminescence. I wonder if this is a similar phenomena to St Elmo's fire, obviously on a much smaller scale.

I think it’s more like what you see when you chew a mint lifesaver in the dark. I remember seeing a video of someone mashing several packs of them in a blender in the dark. Looked like one of those luminescent emergency lights.

Found the image.
Attachment 334344

That's the same color the bandaid wrapper adhesive makes as it comes apart.

Try honing your razor on a slab of iron pyrite and see what happens.

??????????
Attachment 334355

Just a hint. The sparks will fly.

For the last 2 nights honing i have seen rolling bouncing balls on my Nakayama with each Nagura..
Today i filmed a few seconds :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaF_Ma-EetM

Ha, yes that’s it.

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Originally Posted by Steve56

Ha, yes that’s it.

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It could be caused by a highly polished surface, or static,or aliens but probably highly polished..
Cheers

Yup, that’s it.

Most of what I see is a pale amber color and as the ball rolls off there is a little trail of amber light in the wake of the water like a small comet tail.

And sometimes as a ball rolls off the razor it shatters into multiple tiny balls on the stone and water.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JOB15

It could be caused by a highly polished surface, or static,or aliens but probably highly polished..
Cheers

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Probably aliens, lol!

Yep, I have seen the balls and them breaking into smaller balls but never noticed the trailing light but maybe it was because of the room being lit too well...or maybe I needed a big Doobie. :rofl2:

I just saw it earlier this morning on the nephrite stone. Of course I am fooling around about the doobie but have never seen the glow since I don't want to lose a thumb honing in the dark. This morning as I did the pull stroke (toward me) the balls with a tail shot across the stone to the other end and ended at the edge (it's a small stone) in a puddle. I still didn't actually see a "glow" per se but because the slurry on the nephrite is a light emerald green, as the ball shot across it was a sort of key lime pie color until it stopped, then the puddle went back to emerald green again. Interesting how it didn't just roll to the other end but sort of skipped at an accelerated speed like a stone skipped off a pond.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

I just saw it earlier this morning on the nephrite stone. Of course I am fooling around about the doobie but have never seen the glow since I don't want to lose a thumb honing in the dark. This morning as I did the pull stroke (toward me) the balls with a tail shot across the stone to the other end and ended at the edge (it's a small stone) in a puddle. I still didn't actually see a "glow" per se but because the slurry on the nephrite is a light emerald green, as the ball shot across it was a sort of key lime pie color until it stopped, then the puddle went back to emerald green again. Interesting how it didn't just roll to the other end but sort of skipped at an accelerated speed like a stone skipped off a pond.

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Welcome to the exclusive bouncing ball club.. :)

Hey guys, just joined up and randomly saw this post! Have noticed the balls of water rolling and exploding while honing on my jnats quite commonly. I believe it has to do with silica content in the stones and it becoming hydrophobic! This should explain it pretty well https://youtu.be/oUzDkKKcjaY

As for the light!? I can't say I've noticed that yet. I'll test my honing in the dark skills soon..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WabisabiKen

Hey guys, just joined up and randomly saw this post! Have noticed the balls of water rolling and exploding while honing on my jnats quite commonly. I believe it has to do with silica content in the stones and it becoming hydrophobic! This should explain it pretty well https://youtu.be/oUzDkKKcjaY

As for the light!? I can't say I've noticed that yet. I'll test my honing in the dark skills soon..

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Welcome wabisabiken!

Yes, Welcome to SRP!
I may have to give this in-the-dark thing a try. OK, Maybe not.

Welcome to the crew. Let us know how that honing in the dark works out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WabisabiKen

Hey guys, just joined up and randomly saw this post! Have noticed the balls of water rolling and exploding while honing on my jnats quite commonly. I believe it has to do with silica content in the stones and it becoming hydrophobic! This should explain it pretty well https://youtu.be/oUzDkKKcjaY

As for the light!? I can't say I've noticed that yet. I'll test my honing in the dark skills soon..

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I wish I could understand this video.