Anyone Read Japanese?

Ran across a place over the weekend selling natural Japanese waterstones - the previous owner had bought them in Japan, but this guy couldn't read Japanese and didn't know anything about them. He just wanted to shift them because they'd been lying around his shop for 8 years or so...

Anyway, the price was so low I picked one up with the idea of trying it out - no big loss if it doesn't work out.

Can anyone tell me anything about this stone? I haven't got a clue what I bought.

(Sorry in advance for the poor photos)

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James.

cant help you but sure looks cool!

Wish I could help. I will ask a buddy of mine if he can take a look. He grew up in Japan. Just give me a day or two to get a hold of him.:tu

And I am not even gonna point out the irony of the Kanji tattoo. LOL :w


::update:: I just emailed him the picture of it, so I should hear back from him tomorrow sometime. ::FINGERS CROSSED::

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Originally Posted by Windcalmer

Wish I could help. I will ask a buddy of mine if he can take a look. He grew up in Japan. Just give me a day or two to get a hold of him.:tu

And I am not even gonna point out the irony of the Kanji tattoo. LOL :w


::update:: I just emailed him the picture of it, so I should hear back from him tomorrow sometime. ::FINGERS CROSSED::

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Hey, thanks heaps windcalmer. Appreciate it :bow

LOL!! Actually, that's not a Kanji tattoo - it's Pi (3.1415.....) At some point in the future I'm going to get the actual number to about 50-60 decimal places added on in a spiral up my arm (maybe...)

James.

Try OLD_School he lives in Japan bet he could help you out!

O.K. You know I thought that at first and then second guessed myself. LOL I had thought of that idea to. I really wanted to get it to connect a few of my other tattoos. I saw a girl that had it done on her leg back home, and LOVE IT! Hers got smaller the farther down it went.

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Originally Posted by Doc

Try OLD_School he lives in Japan bet he could help you out!

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Thanks Doc :tu - I'll give him a PM.

James.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Hey, thanks heaps windcalmer. Appreciate it :bow

LOL!! Actually, that's not a Kanji tattoo - it's Pi (3.1415.....) At some point in the future I'm going to get the actual number to about 50-60 decimal places added on in a spiral up my arm (maybe...)

James.

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So do you have e or i on your other wrist?
Or perhaps sqrt(e^(i*pi)) = i (or one of the many variants) in symbolic notation on your shoulders?

Now that would be cool. :tu

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Originally Posted by Bruno

So do you have e or i on your other wrist?
Or perhaps sqrt(e^(i*pi)) = i (or one of the many variants) in symbolic notation on your shoulders?

Now that would be cool. :tu

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LOL! That *would* be cool! At one stage I was going to tattoo the analytically intractable integral I solved for my thesis across my chest, but decided against it. My thesis caused me enough pain....

My next tattoo will be a half-sleeve from my right shoulder to elbow - wife won't let me have a straight razor theme, so still working on the design...

James.

Had to consult the wife on this one mainly coz its all Kanji and mostly names (Names in Japanese can have many different readings).

Anyway, the top right Kanji indicates that it is a Honyama hone (Honyama nowadays simply means finishing hone. The only 2 true Honama hones are Nakayama and Shoubudani). The Kanji in the top left with the type of reef around it says its a vintage hone and bottom right Kanji reads Narutaki, which could be the second hardest among Japanese hones. The bottom left reads Ipponyongata (though could actually read differently, the Kanji used together like this are specifically for hones) I presume that this is the seal of the mine owner as none of the other stamps are the seal. I could however be mistaken.

An excellent find IMO. :tu

Hope this info helps and is satisfactory.

O_S

Thanks OLD_SCHOOL - I really appreciate you and your wife taking the time to check this out for me.

Now I'll just have to try it out - I'll let you know how it goes.

James.

Well, I used this stone this morning. I've got a bit of learning to do to get the best out of it I think, but got some reasonable results nonetheless.

It's definitely a hard and slow stone. It's also a finer finisher than the Norton 8k but as to its "grit" I wouldn't want to say at this early stage. It generates almost no slurry from the razor - when I used a Nagura it made a dirty grey/green-ish yellow coloured slurry.

Following a tip from OLD_SCHOOL, I used very little water which seemed to work fairly well without slurry after getting the edge close with an 8k.

I haven't quite worked out whether the slurry makes it cut finer or faster or what yet. I've read that, unlike the coticule, the particulates in Japanese stone slurry continues to break down the more it is worked and can make the edge finer :shrug:

An interesting thing I noticed, and I'm wondering if anyone who uses Japanese naturals has found this too, is that although the edge is finer and smoother, it feels more robust somehow when you shave. Don't ask me how I know, but I can feel something else going on with the edge besides smoothness and sharpness - the edge *feels* less fragile on my skin. Or maybe I'm just going mad...

Anyway, they're my first impressions and observations. I think it'll be a keeper and a regular part of my honing. Still have to figure out the slurry (how much, how it reacts) but for now it's working pretty well.

James.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

An interesting thing I noticed, and I'm wondering if anyone who uses Japanese naturals has found this too, is that although the edge is finer and smoother, it feels more robust somehow when you shave. Don't ask me how I know, but I can feel something else going on with the edge besides smoothness and sharpness - the edge *feels* less fragile on my skin. Or maybe I'm just going mad...

James.

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I have little experience with traditional straights but what I can safely say is this.
With 2 shave ready straights from a yellow coticule I couldn't get a comfortable shave, just 1 cheek and part of the other before having to re-strop, however after using a Nakayama hone, I got through nearly my entire beard until it started to struggle with my chin hair, but even my feather struggles on my chin area thats why I grew a goatee for a while. Anyway, thats me agreeing that there is something different about it, but with my lack of experience I can't say what that difference is.

Jimbo and chance of grabbing another one of those and shiping state side is there? just curious! looks like a nice stone. if so just let me know what it would cost. Thanks. If not thats cool to.

I sent a mail to So at www.japan-tool.com to ask about this hone, and he sent me the following reply:

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Originally Posted by So

It says it is from Narutaki quarry, and seems like one as well.

I can't be absolutely sure from just by looking at it, but I'm 99% sure
that this is way too soft for razor honing. Good for chisels, and plane
blades, but a bit too coarse for final finishing plane blades. Also good
for Japanese laminated style knives (not for western all steel knives).

Hope this will help.


So

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Thanks Bruno. So's reply is interesting - I've got no experience with Japanese naturals other than these stones. The one I posted pics of seems very hard to me, but perhaps it's not in relation to some other Japanese stones. I've gotten good shaves off this stone.

However, I did get another two stones (for comparison) from the same place. Did I mention before that all the stones they had are different? Anyway, while I can't comment on their hardness (maybe they are a bit softer :shrug:), what So says about the grit is definitely true of these two - I haven't been able to get as fine an edge off these as the original - they feel like 6k or so to me.

Looks like I might have fluked a good one from the batch...

James.

I lapped mine, and did a first experiment yesterday.
It soaks up water fairly quickly (so it is probably 'soft' by Japanese measures.
It is also as smooth as glass. Even more than my coticule.

According to So it was too coarse, but it is definitely a lot finer than 4K because I polished away the 4K scratch pattern of a razor I am currently honing without too much problems, and the surface was mirror shiny with no visible scratches.

Of course, since the razor was still dull I could not judge its effect on a good 8K edge yet. That will be the next experiment: as a finisher after Norton 8K.

Did So mention sealing the back and sides if it's a softer stone?

No.
But then again, I didn't buy my stone from him.
I only asked So if he knew anything about it, based on the Kanji.

Two of the stones at the shop were painted - one had a yellowish lacquer around the sides and another had a black paint-like substance. The black painted one turned out to be from Taiwan - apparently they have similar volcanic geology to Japan - and is one of the other two stones I picked up. It feels more like a 6k to me, but I'm still trying to get my bearings with these stones. The one I have that looks like Bruno's is definitely a finer finisher than the Norton 8k, but is not painted and definitely sounds harder than Bruno's too.

James.

Yesterday I honed my weltmeister on this hone. About 100 laps with a light slurry.
The bevel looked really polished and the water flowed over the razor.

The shave was not great because the shrpness was not great.
It was smooth though, and completely without irritation.

I will try to hone it a bit more and see what happens.
The edge is better than from the 4K, but worse than from the 8K

Now, that's talking about YMMV. Three people owning a stone with the same Kanji marks but three completely different impressions.
My hone is on the hard side - it hardly soaks up any water at all. But it doesn't mirror-polish the blade (at least not the first blade I tested it on, a "The Dome extra hollow ground"), it gave some kind of a satin-finish. After using the Chromium oxide and the Iron oxide pastes followed by the leather strop to set the edge I got one of the finest edges I've ever had. The stone also seems finer than a Thuringian to me, so it's at least a 8/9k+ grit size (I compared the grooves with my loupe).

That's fine enough for me. In fact, that's where the honing methods of the German and the English boards differ (me coming from a German background). Stones in the range of 6k to 8k are considered finishing hones (no one uses hones in the range of 10k+ on the German boards) and we always use the pastes to set the edge (you can't really get an edge on the hones alone followed by leather, you need the pastes to get/set and smooth out the second angle that forms the edge - but, of course, YMMV).

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Originally Posted by moviemaniac

Now, that's talking about YMMV. Three people owning a stone with the same Kanji marks but three completely different impressions.

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Please don't get confused. The stamps only indicate where the stones were mined and what type of stone they are. The stamps do not tell you about hardness or grit, that comes down to experience. You can have a primo million dollar hone hard as a diamond 250k grit and right beside it you could have a $5 lump of mud. No Japanese stones are ever the same, I can't stress this enough.

Ah, now that's good to know. So, basically, the only real test to know whether the stone is worth anything is to use it? I like that. Kinda like playing the lottery. But, by the looks of my stone, it seems like I'm a winner :D

That's good to know Klaus - I started getting confused because I thought mine was at least 8K, or behaved that way, but Bruno's didn't, and So thought it was no good for razors etc... Then I used it more regularly and found that it works fine - it's no 60K super-stone by any stretch, but I get very shaveable edges off it.

Interesting you mention the pastes - I've been mucking around with an Escher/Japanese pyramid and a Shapton 16K/Japanese pyramid for the last couple of weeks (when I say pyramid I just mean alternating between the two stones several times). Very good edges, better than just the Escher or Shapton edges alone IMO. Don't really know what that's about, but I'll take what I can get...:)

James.

Pyramides, now that's something I haven't tried before. I always use my loupe to check the results of the hone I'm using and only move to the next stone after the previous has had its impact on every part of the bevel. That way I never have to go back to a coarser stone. If I'm not satisfied at the end I start from the beginning at the 1000 grit with a different setup of finer stones (different stones for different blades). always use the pastes though. used on the hanging strop that's held not taut but leaving it hanging through a bit you create the edge due to the different (steeper) angle of the strop and the very fine abrasive material of the pastes. That's something you can't do with a stone, regardless how fine it is. But, there are many paths leading to Rome, that's just the "German" approach to hone razors.

But now I have to try a pyramid with the japanese some day, thanks for the suggestion! :tu

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Originally Posted by moviemaniac

Ah, now that's good to know. So, basically, the only real test to know whether the stone is worth anything is to use it? I like that. Kinda like playing the lottery. But, by the looks of my stone, it seems like I'm a winner :D

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Well basically with those ones it is like the lottery. My understanding though I could be mistaken, is that Jimbo's source doesn't know very much if anything about the stones, which suggests he never found out when buying and his source too may not have known. If I am mistaken Jimbo, I apologise in advance. :bow

Generally though, buying from a reliable source like So or myself, you know you are getting what you pay for and then some, so theres no gamble.

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Well basically with those ones it is like the lottery. My understanding though I could be mistaken, is that Jimbo's source doesn't know very much if anything about the stones, which suggests he never found out when buying and his source too may not have known. If I am mistaken Jimbo, I apologise in advance. :bow

Generally though, buying from a reliable source like So or myself, you know you are getting what you pay for and then some, so theres no gamble.

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Yes, that's pretty much on the money O_S. These stones are a lottery, which is why I've never offered to get them for people generally, even though they are relatively cheap.

The guys who sell them have no clue at all. I was told that the old boss/owner went over to Japan 5-10 years ago, grabbed these from somewhere over there, and brought them back. He probably knew something about them at the time, but he's not there any more. Anyway, they've sat in the store room ever since, to the point where they've reduced the cost substantially from what I can see, just to get rid of them.

I'd also recommend that people buy from someone like O_S or So - they really know their stuff from what I can tell, and you're guaranteed to get a good stone.

James.

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Originally Posted by moviemaniac

That's fine enough for me. In fact, that's where the honing methods of the German and the English boards differ (me coming from a German background). Stones in the range of 6k to 8k are considered finishing hones (no one uses hones in the range of 10k+ on the German boards) and we always use the pastes to set the edge (you can't really get an edge on the hones alone followed by leather, you need the pastes to get/set and smooth out the second angle that forms the edge - but, of course, YMMV).

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Interesting.
a lot of people here do the same. They use the Norton 4000/8000 for honing, and then use pasted strops to finish.

I don't use pastes at all. After the 8000 I finish on the coticule (until recently) and then on my nakayama which is an incredible stone (30000 or 40000 grit).
It is perfectly possible to get perfect edges off stones allone, provided you have good stones, which are indeed very expensive compared to pastes which are dirt cheap.

I like stones very much. I played with the idea of starting to use pastes, but now that I have my large coticule and high end nakayama, I don't think I'll ever bother with pastes.

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Generally though, buying from a reliable source like So or myself, you know you are getting what you pay for and then some, so theres no gamble.

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One day I'm gonna get myself a hone from you or So, just for comparison and for owning one. Right now my budget doesn't allow the purchase - I've spent far too much money on hones and razors the last few months :nono:

@Bruno: Well, with a hone that fine it's most certainly possible to get by without using pastes. One day I'm gonna find out for myself :w

By the way: I just finished honing a Wapi on my Japanese and it also took an incredible edge. Just WOW!

Just wanted to add that this hone is now half of my magical combo.

I hone a razor on 1K / 4K until it passes the TNT, and perhaps 2 pyramids to see if it'll mow down arm hairs.
Then I do 100 passes on this narutaki stone with slurry, and then 100 passes on the nakayama with slurry.

This combination seems to do the trick every time on razors with known good steel.
It has progressed to the point where I am considering selling my big 8*3 coticule.
Then again, it might come in handy sometime.

Good to know, Bruno, I'll give it a try when my Nakayama arrives :w (dang HAD :gth )

Well, guys, I need your services once again. After reading about how good the Lee Valley stone is supposed to be, I had to order one and it arrived today after 3,5 weeks in transit.
The one I got is a VERY hard stone - as I tried to illustrate with the last pic. The drops of water didn't sink into the stone at all - even after 15 minutes!

So, anyway, I attached the pictures and maybe O_S would be kind enough to enlighten me about the meaning of the Kanji on this hone - thanks in advance!

[quote=moviemaniac;220289
So, anyway, I attached the pictures and maybe O_S would be kind enough to enlighten me about the meaning of the Kanji on this hone - thanks in advance![/quote]

That my friend is another Narutaki hone. :D I am sure I have mentioned these stamps in an earlier post, but there seems to be one stamp different.

六十型　the literal translation for this is model 60. Could be type 60 also but thats pretty much the same meaning.


Its good to have my language bar back, really makes it easier.

Aaaah, thanks, O_S - now that i had a nearer look I can see the similarities in the kanji to my other hone - now I know which part means Narutaki :D

I take it, the upper left-logo is simply a family-trademark? What about the one on the middle-right, I couldn't find anything about it here on the board.

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Originally Posted by moviemaniac

I take it, the upper left-logo is simply a family-trademark? What about the one on the middle-right, I couldn't find anything about it here on the board.

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The upper left logo says 天然(tennen=natural) at the top, 砥石(toishi=sharpening stone) in the center and 京都特産(Kyoto tokusan = Kyoto special product at the bottom.

The middle right stamp reads 最高級品　(saikoukyuuhin=high grade product)

Hope thats a help.

You're the best, O_S, I'm gonna print that out together with the pictures of the hone so the info doesn't get lost during the years of using it (or after lapping ;) )

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Originally Posted by moviemaniac

You're the best, O_S, I'm gonna print that out together with the pictures of the hone so the info doesn't get lost during the years of using it (or after lapping ;) )

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If it is anything like mine, the ink will have soaked pretty deep into the stone.
If it is reasonably flat to begin with (no dents) then those kanji will be there for a long time.

Yepp, the ink really is deep. Mine arrived very flat, too (except for a small part) so no need to lap it right now :D
I used mine as a base for the chinese 12k yesterday and was very pleased with the results.