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I wondered if anyone uses a Nagura Stone with their Coticule or Chinese 12k? Anyone have experiences to share? I understand that the Nagura provides a chalky glide instead of the fast-cutting slurry of the Cotigura. I have tried the Nagura and these high grit stones but I'm not sure what I think yet. It hasn't seemed too helpful yet.
Hey Dewey!Quote:
Originally Posted by DEwey
I have tried the Nagura stone on the Chinese 12K and didn't care for it. I've been using a small Arkansas fine super hard stone. It works great. I just happened to have one laying around and tried it for grins and giggles. I'm glad I did.
Hey Ken -
Are you using the Arkansas as a rubbing stone or that's just your preferred hone at the moment? How does that compare to a translucent?
Thanks!
No I have not used a Nagura stone on either of these and do not plan to. When I get to these really high grit finishing stones I am not looking to make them cut more quickly because my edge is already very smooth and sharp at this point. The smoother the cutting action of these stones the better for me, and all the evidence seems to indicate that the stones leave a smoother scratch pattern when used with just plain water. I do use rubbing stones to refresh the surface of my finishing stones (coticule and escher) from time to time to extend the amount of time between lappings on the DMT.
Hey DEwey,Quote:
Originally Posted by DEwey
The Arkansas stone is only the rubbing stone. I am able hone very quickly with the Norton 1K/4K/8K then then Chinese 12K stones and finish on Chr. Ox pastes. I'm able to knock out 5-8 razors in just a couple of hours and not feel rushed. So it would take a lot for me to switch systems.
:HJ I've started paddle strop production this week. I hope to have some ready on my web site on Monday.
I use the nagura stone to make a light slurry on my kitayama 12K and it's excellent for my uses.
I know that's not a chinese 12k, but it does work.
I have found the same.
The nagura on a natural japanese stone improves the polishing action and reduces the cutting action.
I tried putting a nagura slurry on my coticule but it adds nothing. I think the nagura clay slurry is overpowered by the coticule grit.
The coticule is a lot harder a hone than the japanese water stones.
Anyway, that was my limited experience.
Interesting, my Chinese 12k is A LOT harder than my coticule. I was reading another source that said the nagura produces a cushioning slurry but not an aggressive slurry like the coticule rubbed with a piece of coticule.
I was to understand that the Nagura needs to be from the same or harder stone to produce an efficient slurry. I was surprised when I was given a different stone as a Nagura which produces a slurry from itself rather than from the actual hone and changes the whole effect of things, so I don't use a slurry.
I think that could be half the problems others have encountered, using an inappropriate Nagura for the inappropriate hone.
That is just my opinion and as usual YMMV.
I do believe you have hit on something. That why I think I went to the super hard small Arkansas stone as a prep stone on my 12K Chinese. I wasn't happy with what the results from the regular Nagura when I tried on the 12K.Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL
I try to air on the side of caution when it comes to such matters, because A: I don't have much experience and B: when a guy who has been dealing with hones some 40-50 years who am I to challenge?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenrup
Having said that though it was a young fellow who actually threw the Nagura in the bag, so.....
I agree that you've hit on something. I've tried a Nagura on a belgian and also on a Norton 4000/8000 and on all cases under a microscope, significant micro-chipping. Just bad edges for me. I don't use the Nagura at all now; but, I don't have any Japanese stones either. So, nagura on the wrong stone contributes to sub-par results?:shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL
RE: The coticule, I've also stopped using the "cotigura" rubbing stone and find that I get better edge results with just plain water. I DO however use the yellow rubbing stone on my belgium blue and it makes a nice slurry that I believe helps the cutting action more so than just water on the blue.
I find my swaty does a nice job with my 12k. I'm guessing any other ceramic hone would have a similar effect.
That said I am not sure whether a slurry helps the edge and tend to finish with a light touch and fresh water (at this time).
Bob
I also hear recently that you could use a diamond hone to work up a slurry. I think that could very well be the best idea.
I used to use either a Nagura stone or a Coticule rubbing stone on the Chinese 12K, the Coticule and the Escher. More and more I have found that when I come off the Norton 8K or the Shapton 8K, that there is a pretty well polished blade with some striations. I have much greater success in using these stones just with water. The UF is still a mystery to me. Works sometimes with around 30 strokes and on other razors, nuttin honey. The 16K Shapton is pretty good by itself, but sometimes a paste might help afterwards.
Have fun,
Lynn
Thanks for chiming in, Lynn. Sometimes I wonder if I am the only one that has hit and miss results from time to time! Of course, with your experience level, I am sure that you quickly move on to another trusted method to achieve the keeness that you're looking for. I am still trying to develop my various methods!
It is interesting how our trends change. A few years back nobody used a rubbing stone on a coticule. A year ago everyone got on board and bought a cotigura. Now everybody is doing plain water again. We all learn and experience together. I'm still experimenting with and without. IT is fun. We are all re-learning this fun stuff. MikeBQuote:
Originally Posted by adjustme69
I do like to use a 2"x6" 600 grit diamond hone on all my stones for the first half of each set of strokes, then clean off the slurry and finish on the bare surface with just water to lubricate. then move to the next stone and repeat, consistently takes an unusable razor to super fine in 30 to 45 min.
I've been spending a lot of time recently chatting with woodworkers that favor traditional Japanese woodworking tools and Japanese stones not because I'm a woodworker, but because these people have a vast knowledge of sharpening in general and have given me great insight that applies to razors as well.
One VERY interesting point that I'll post more on later which came from a Australian woodworker who incidentally has been shaving with a straight for 20 years (not yet a member of SRP yet). He does NOT use a slurry on any tools or razors and actually has gone to dry ceramics. I guess there is a well respected woodworker that argues that slurries are counterproductive and produce microscopic damage to an edge that water or a dry stone does not. This person's analogy is: Slurries are to a blade edge like a pile of sand is to a whirring lawnmower blade....bad news. A blanket statement probably can't be made like that, but I do find it very interesting that in my own (very limited) personal experience, Nagura and Cotigura slurries have not been good; and Rottenstone was the flat out worst for me and more importantly, many of us including Lynn are reporting better edges without slurry. There's got to be something there for so many of us seeing better results with no slurry.
Chris L
You are correct, there are various sources (such as John Juranitch, authority on blade sharpening for the meat packing industry) that have done extensive tests and find consistently that slurries abrade much more rapidly and aggressively than plain stones, which leaves the edge more ragged and unrefined. Juranitch even advocates using stones dry, as any lubrication allows the grit particle to build up to some degree.
Then again, I use a slurry made with a diamond hone, because naguras and cotiguras to me don't make sense, why would you put abrasive form one stone onto another of possibly differing grit size (like using a cotigura on a 12k, what you are doing is mixing the abrasives, and lowering the results of which ever is the finer stone). So with a diamond hone you are using the stone's own grit to cut faster, and not contaminating it.
I always finish with no slurry (and minimal water) so that the edge is as fine as possible, but the steps leading up to the final polish I use a slurry to speed the process up.
Great info, Russel. Thanks. That's the name of the person he mentioned (Juranitch). The Juranitch info was compelling enough for the woodworker/20 year straight razor shaver to abandon all slurry and even water (he uses ceramic stones now and not naturals). I'm going to experiment with this myself. As I mentioned, so far I have not had good results with slurries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge
Chris L