NOS razor honing problem

I'm trying to hone a NOS 7/8 fili, and it's being problematic.

There's a 1 cm area towards the heel that wants to form a wire edge off of everything finer than a 4k.:confused:

I set the bevel on a 1.2k, and have no problems on my freshly lapped Norton 4k, however when I try honing on anything finer, this area forms a wire edge. (within 5 passes)

I've tried my norton 8k, my transparent arkansas, even my kitayama 12k...
no pressure, all of these hones were freshly lapped.
Even using a pasted strop causes this spot to foul up.

I have tried everything I can think of from honing at a 45 to a Zowada style double bevel. This area will not take an edge.

My thoughts at this point are that the metal is flawed in this blade, or that there was a problem with it's heat treatment.:shrug:

As this is something I've never encountered(in a straight razor), I figured I would run it by the group.

Any ideas or suggestions?

Pushing the envelope here Mike, because it sounds like you are to that point...
Perhaps trying some back honing?????

That's all I can think of that you haven't already tried, and I am not stating all the obvious BS because you are not new to honing...

If the blade is slightly warped towards the heel that will cause increased "wear" towards the heel compared to other parts of the blade. If one part wears more you get a wire edge in an earlier phase of your honing. Similar to a warp in the middle of the blade which will cause a frown.

Suggestion: as soon as the heel is sharp continue doing your X-patterns while avoiding contact of the heel with the hone.

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Originally Posted by Kees

If the blade is slightly warped towards the heel that will cause increased "wear" towards the heel compared to other parts of the blade. If one part wears more you get a wire edge in an earlier phase of your honing. Similar to a warp in the middle of the blade which will cause a frown.

Suggestion: as soon as the heel is sharp continue doing your X-patterns while avoiding contact of the heel with the hone.

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Thank you, I did try back honing, and avoiding "the" spot, neither worked.
I can get the rest of the blade shave ready no problem...
I checked for warping and that isn't the problem...:shrug:

The best description I can give would be that this particular spot on the blade was an unholy donation made by Zeepk...

Mike,

Since the razor is a 7/8 and has been closed for a few decades close the razor up and see where that spot sits in the scales. Could it have been in contact with the scales for all these decades?

that's a thought, but no...
It's perfectly centered, a three pin design, and the scales don't even come close to the edge.

I'm absolutely stumped on this one...

I can see why. I"d guess softer steel at that spot. What grind is it? You've evaluated the grind near that spot?

BTW . . . I think my solution would be to hone the rest of the razor up perfect then turn a thin stone sideways and back hone that section then rehone that section alone to the right level.

Maybe even using a paddle with a touch of grit, 1cm wide.

Mike:
Perhaps the same solution I use at work when I am going brain dead might work here....
Another set of fresh eyes and hands on that SOB might help or at least confirm your suspicion that the blade is actually bad...
Perhaps Alan or myself might take a run at it and see if maybe something we do different can change it up????
I am caught up right now so the offer is there from me, if you want to take advantage of it...

Both of these would be good suggestions if the razor was mine, but I'm honing it for a member, and even if I can get it shave ready at this point, I'm not sure what to tell the member.
With the problems I've had, I doubt a beginner would be able to maintain it, and I really wouldn't want to put my reputation behind a blade that I know is sub-par... At this point I'm confident that even if I can get it sharp, the back third of the blade will not hold it's edge.

I've already spent over 3 hours on a blade that should have taken 20 minutes max to hone.
I'm thinking my best course of action at this point would be to have him return and/or exchange the razor. (which is a real bummer, because it's a nice looking razor)

I don't have any solutions but it just sounds to me like something bad was done to that razor in the past to cause an issue. maybe someone corrected the problem partially but then created the problem with that section. Unless you use a very narrow hone to selectively tackle the problem area the only other thing I can think of is to hone back the entire blade to get to some better metal.

I thought about that, but it's from Classicshaving, so they should exchange it for it's owner, and I'll be happy to hone the replacement.
If it was mine, or was an E-bay purchase, I might consider honing it down a little, but I really think the defect is deep, or it would cover a much smaller area.
Filarmonica used very good quality steel for their blades, I am more prone to think it either got over heated while getting it's final grind, or something else went wrong in the heat treatment process.

In either case if I'm correct, it will not get better even if I were to hone it down to a 5/8

I had one like that a while back it came up to speed when I ran it over my sequence of bench ones. But like you said, it just might be defective steel.

I've run it through my entire arsenal of hones, tricks etc...
With and without slurry, pasted strops, sandpapers.

Under magnification, I can watch as that spot scratches faster and deeper than regular razor steel, it also polishes faster. It's almost like I'm trying to hone aluminum (yes I have tried)
I've seen Zeepks take and hold an edge better...

If I had to guess, I would assume they tried to spot temper the blade, and missed part of it, or they only dipped part of it?

Run her through some cork to make sure the edge is clean then try circular honing method mixed with x-pattern on higher grit i.e. colticule - to first establish the bevel. Then see how she takes to normal routine x-pattern after that. Go real slow and keep checking edge regularly.

It's gonna take you longer to achieve the desired edge but the coticule will be less harsh on the blade and should produce the desired results.

FYI I'd a dovo I honed for someone that produced similar results and that's how I got round it.

I don't have a coticule, but I tried several variations of that...
No matter ho I tried it the heel won't take an edge.
It actually folded when I tried the TPT...
I've never seen steel do this.

The good news is I contacted Classic this morning, and they couldn't have been better.
They didn't hesitate, As soon as I explained the situation they got my address, and they are sending out a replacement. Hopefully I will have the replacement honed and to the member in a week or so.

Now thats customer service!

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Originally Posted by poona

Now thats customer service!

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+1, and the bonus is mike will be able to get past his nightmare honing session soon enough..

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Originally Posted by coachmike

+1, and the bonus is mike will be able to get past his nightmare honing session soon enough..

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Good resolution. I know I am guilty of taking for granted that the razor is in serviceable condition when it might have problems.

We all want our razors to be serviceable, and this is a nice one. perfectly centered, well balanced... I was reasonably certain that it was flawed, but thought maybe somebody could offer a magic cure all, that one step that makes you step back and go wow...
As it is, Even if A solution could be found, How would the member maintain the edge?
I wouldn't be confident sending it out and expecting anybody to maintain or shave with it...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

We all want our razors to be serviceable, and this is a nice one. perfectly centered, well balanced... I was reasonably certain that it was flawed, but thought maybe somebody could offer a magic cure all, that one step that makes you step back and go wow...
As it is, Even if A solution could be found, How would the member maintain the edge?
I wouldn't be confident sending it out and expecting anybody to maintain or shave with it...

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and that level of commitment to your clients and services is what makes you special in our circle....:tu

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Originally Posted by coachmike

and that level of commitment to your clients and services is what makes you special in our circle....:tu

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Thank you.
80% of my honing work is from repeat customers, If I send a sub-par or damaged razor to a member here, I would be hurting myself almost as much as them. This community is just that, a community. It's so much more than a simple forum. I'm just greatful that I can be part of it.

I just had to post an update on this, I got the replacement from ClassicShaving today.
How's that for customer service? under 2 days for the replacement...
I have to commend them for their outstanding customer support, I didn't expect to get a replacement for a week at least.

The replacement is a prime example of everything I have come to expect from Filarmonica, perfectly centered, very clean workmanship.
I have not tried honing it yet, I won't be able to do that till this evening, but I must say I am thoroughly impressed with the speed in which Classic got this to me.