Printable View
Has anyone who has shaved with a TZ tried putting a double bevel on a regular razor?
Since I have heard it mentioned that damascus steel does not necessarily make for the best shaving steel, I wonder if it is more just the honing that accounts for the amazing shaves TZ owners rave about.
There's a huge thread about it somewhere that IIRC Josh and Heavyduty tried and tested this double bevel.
I made a double bevel on a solingen razor I have but the results weren't any better than the traditional single bevel. In fact I'd go so far to say that it was a big fat waste of my time lol.
If the steel is good and the edge is good, you'll get a fantastic shave. It really is that simple :-)
Graham,
If the edge is good you have the potential to get a good shave. :)
Hehe, I just assume everyone has my blade wielding skillz! :P
To be honest, it kinda confuses me! Yes, I tried it, and it seemed relatively successful. - but then, I'd have to commit to it completely, I think (see, I'm still confused). I forgot which blade had the double edge on,.....no, not really, but I would have to remember, or commit the whole herd to becoming doubles.
My edges are quite good, and I do not see the need of a double edge. If I were having a problem getting an edge right, I would just go to my 1200 DMT, create a new bevel, and start over.
I agree with Poona...
Steve
Tim does a lot of fancy things to those razors before they ever get their final bevel, so it could just be the way he works the steel. I would bet that the double bevel is only a small portion of the overall performance.
But if it matters, I have contended before that some of my razors seem to last longer with the double bevel. But that's a whole can of worms that probably comes down to technique and steel in question.
As with everything in life, you'll never know how something could turn out for you if you never give it a shot. And if it doesn't work any better than the standard bevel, you really haven't lost anything, but have gained some knowledge and experience.
Thanks for the replies. I did read the interesting thread on double bevels. Since most TZ owners rave about the shave, I guess my question was not whether the double bevel works or not, but whether TZ owners thought their TZ's were superior to non-TZ blades sharpened the same way.
I'd love to find out for myself, but owning a TZ is not something I can try at this time. ;)
In of itself, the double bevel is not what makes a TZ shave better than other razors, it is the quality of the steel, the heat treatment, the grinding and all the other factors that make a Tim Zowada special. Putting a great double bevel on a normal razor will not make it shave like a Zowada and putting a great single bevel on a Zowada will not bring down the quality of the shave to that of a "normal razor". Double bevel honing is just the method that Tim found consistently puts a good edge on a razor in a production type of setting. Honing a Zowada with tape also protects the beautiful damascus finish, while this might not be a concern with a regular vintage razor. A great single bevel will shave just as well as a great double bevel on both TZ razors and non TZ razors.Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG
I would agree that a double bevel razor should last a little longer as any greater angled bevel might.
Ofcourse, HD is correct as usual the Damascus would be a big reason for double beveling and the speed with which you can get an edge.
I find, I should add, that updating even after one layer of tape can be time consuming if you forget you've used tape or change your mind.
The proper angle should be a rather thin one. Someday I will probably tape my go to razor instead of getting it regrinded when the spine wears too much for a good angle (its been my daily razor for 5 years I think).
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavydutysg135
Yeah, his heat treatment and tempering procedures are really quite impressive. He has a ton of money invested just in the equipment to be able to do what he does, nevermind the time it has taken to become adept at producing that level of consistent quality. I would love to be able to afford one.
All damascus steel isn't created equal. Basically "damascus" just denotes steel that has been created by layering and welding two or more different steels together.
Tim uses two excellent carbon tool steels in his pattern-welded blades, and his heat-treatments are excellent. His blades should perform as well or better than any carbon steel blade.
Damascus made from steel and a softer material, such as nickel, would likely have some issues.
I've tried double bevels a few times, and I think the technique works. The extra tape tips the blade up a tiny bit, so the finishing hone is cutting on a smaller area of the bevel. It allows the finishing hone to quickly remove all the coarser scratches from the cutting edge.
Another effect is that you wind up with a slightly more obtuse angle on the edge, which in theory makes it a bit sturdier.
I haven't found that it makes enough of a difference to make me do all my razors this way, but once in a while I'll do it just for fun. :)
Josh
Good post Josh.
I'd also add to that form my experience doing them that the shaving angle changes ever so slightly. It's not dramatic but I find it's noticeable.
As far as I am concerned, and I'm pretty sure I read a similar comment from Tim on his website, the only reason for putting a double bevel on a straight is to simply save time and of course to save the finish on those fancy damascus patterned jobs. Tim uses 1 layer of tape to protect the spine during the forming of the bevel (to protect the finish on the spine) and then adds two more layers of tape to make the final honing of the edge quick, easy and just as sharp as honing for an extended period of time as required if using a single bevel. The time it takes to properly hone a single bevel on a modern steel razor such as a Tim Zowada creation can take a long long time, and this is time that Tim can better spend working on the next razor rather than toiling at the hone with a no more sharper edge as an end result than he can create in short order using double bevel technique. Woodworkers often refer to this as putting a micro bevel on an edge and again it's done to save time as the end result is pretty much the same.
Regards
Christian
That's a good point, Christian. I forgot to mention it, but Tim's razors are advertised at Rockwell C 62-63. Most vintage razors, from what I've heard, range from the mid to upper 50s. Those few points make a HUGE difference in how difficult it is to hone the razor. A microbevel would save a lot of time on a razor like this.
Josh
The double bevel Tim puts on his blades is extremely small, just a few passes on an 8k would remove it. It is simply to speed honing on such a hard blade.
I've never had the opportunity to try a TZ, but I've used his method on Wacker blades that were up there in hardness(RC 61-62?), and found it to be a very good option.
On the Wackers I found the double bevel had a secondary benefit of providing a smoother edge.
Your not kidding man, a piece of steel hardened to RHC 63 will cut into one hardened to only 58 or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshEarl
I have a few kitchen knives made of 1095, as-quenched hardness was around 65, I tempered them down to around 62 and they will act like a file when run across vintage razor steel (a borderline unsalvageable W&B that I keep around for laughs, no harm was done to either blade).