Honing the tip of a smile ?

I've got a couple of otherwise extremely nice gentle smiling blades that don't want to sharpen at the toe.

In one case it looks like someone has rounded the point on a square tip on purpose or through inattention and changed the blade angle on the front 1/32". I've been trying to sneak up on the edge and have had minor success ( it was around 1/16" ).

The other is much more subtle and seems more like a case of loose wrists while honing.

While I'm not expecting to turn it into a square point again I am hoping I can get an edge on the toes so that I can use it for trimming.

Assuming I can't put steel back on a blade the options as I see them are:

1. develop a more fluid honing stroke and hone the curve.
2. grind the edge higher and remove the curve by grinding the rest of the edge to a matching height.
3. grind the end of the blade and remove the flaw by making the blade shorter.
4. something else I haven't thought of

What do you do when you get ones like this and how do you decide what the best plan of attack is?

Thanks,
Bob
:w

Hey Bob,

I hadn't honed any of my smilers for a while, but picked up a nice old wedge the other week that needed special attention on its smile.

What generally works for me is a rocking motion (Xman's Rolling Hone stroke) - a small U-shaped movement in the vertical plane while maintaining an X pattern in the horizontal plane - maybe the "fluid" motion you mention in point 1.

You can also work on it piece by piece for a while, but in the end I've found that you'll need to even out the edge with continuous strokes.

If the spine is of uneven width, or even if it's not, I still always use magic marker initially to see how extreme I need to go with the rocking motion to get the heel and tip.

Personally I wouldn't consider grinding, but maybe that's just me.

Good Luck.

James.

Robert, I think you're describing what X-man calls "stubbed toes," and they're not easy for anybody. In my experience the rolling-hone approach or just regular x-ing with a slightly exaggerated concluding tilt can help a lot with this, and get you an edge very close indeed to the toe, but actually getting the very tip is pretty elusive and in my opinion not worth too many risky honing contortions. If you look at most smiling blades – even honemeister-honed ones – under a scope, you'll notice that while the bevel goes right to the very end, the actual sharpened and polished cutting surface stops as the bevel curves away toward the toe.

True spike points and spanish points are much better for detail. I wouldn't try to change a stub-toed smiler into something it's not meant to be – but as Jimbo said, that's just my opinion.

Yes!

"Stubbed toe" is the perfect name for the problem.

The problem with the rolling motion on these toes is it is very easy to roll past the bevel and roll the edge making the problem worse.
&
Over time I can't see how it can't help but get worse as the only way of making it sharp is taking off more steel at a more acute angle.

A minor regrind in either or both directions seems like a more permanent solution.

Not having a belt or rotary yet I will go with the rolling hone but I'm awfully tempted to fix the problem so that it doesn't require 3D honing.

-Bob
:shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobertFontaine

The problem with the rolling motion on these toes is it is very easy to roll past the bevel and roll the edge making the problem worse.

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Yes, it's important to remember that "honing in 3-D" (great phrase!) does not mean abandoning spine contact; it's just that the portion of spine in contact may be rather narrow at any given moment if the blade is a smilie, warpie, has a stubbed toe, etc.

The rolling-hone method is really just a way of x-ing while appearing to a bird's-eye-view be going straight down the hone. For some reason in my experience at least it leaves you more prone to do exactly what you're talking about – overdo it and roll the edge. With stub-toed smilers I much prefer Joshearl's method of concentrating on the outer 1" of the hone; you sort of pretend the outer inch is a narrow hone and you X on it; I find it easier this way to (a) maintain a light and fluid touch even with an exaggerated rolling arc, and (b) maintain steady spine contact.

With difficult razors I also sit in a lower chair at my honing bench so that what's going on at the edge and spine is at eye level.

fwiw, I have a few wedges that are better shavers because of their "stubbed toes". I find that I can get into a few spots using just the toe easier than try to stretch the skin to an almost painful degree for a non stubbed toe razor.

I would also vote against the regrind, just be careful when you hone it and you shouldn't have a problem.

I asked the same question a few moons ago... :)

I can usually get the entire edge sharp by using the stroke dylandog mentioned. I let the toe lift up slightly off the hone, so just the heel and the spine near the heel are making contact. Then I do an X stroke, rolling the contact point along the outer edge of the hone. I tip the scales up at the end to bring the toe down onto the hone. It's a funky rock-n-roll stroke, but it works.

The problem is usually getting the edge properly established on those areas of the blade. I find that even with my weird stroke, I won't get the right angle on every stroke. So the middle gets sharp first, and if you leave the lower grits at this point, you're unlikely to get the toe and heel sharp later.

Josh

I applaud you guys for being experienced this way and with the rolling hone stroke. I'm the first to admit that I still think I'm simply daft, because a just can't visualize how you do this. I'm anxiously awaiting Heavyduty's promised vid on this and hope I haven't missed it.

Don't bother trying to further explain the rolling hone stroke to me in greater detail in hope that I finally get it since it's not your explanations that are less than successful, it's me not being able to grasp it.

Chris L

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chrisl

I applaud you guys for being experienced this way and with the rolling hone stroke. I'm the first to admit that I still think I'm simply daft, because a just can't visualize how you do this. I'm anxiously awaiting Heavyduty's promised vid on this and hope I haven't missed it.

Don't bother trying to further explain the rolling hone stroke to me in greater detail in hope that I finally get it since it's not your explanations that are less than successful, it's me not being able to grasp it.

Chris L

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Hey Chris - I know you said don't bother trying to explain, but maybe this will help while waiting for the video.

Imagine you have a big wide hone, like the Norton, and you only want to hone the last 1/2 inch of the heel. Imagine the hone sitting North/South in front of you, and you want to hone this part of the heel on the right hand edge of the hone (you're right handed, I hope). So the remainder of the edge is over the hone, not off it.

To get that bit of the heel, in that configuration, you'd need to lift the tip of the razor up a bit.

Now break the edge up into contiguous 1/2 inch pieces and imagine trying to hone each piece on the right hand edge of the hone while X-ing. Start with the tip up for the heel - as you move down the hone the tip drops until it's flat on the hone. Then the heel lifts to get the tip at the end of the stroke.

:hmmm: It is hard to explain properly. I think I might wait for the video too....:thinking:

James.

It is hard to explain. I got my chops busted pretty good by X a while back when I thought I had it and didn't... :)

What I need to do is come up with a good analogy using some kind of common household item. :hmmm: Or just wait for heavyduty's vid...

Josh

Chris,

When I'm doing a rolling x pattern I think of how I would have to maneuver the blade as if I were honing on a stone that is 1/8 of an inch wide. If you can visualize what that would look like, then all you have to do is reproduce that motion on a larger stone. The blade only contacts the 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch of the stone along the far right hand side, and any movement you must make to achieve that goal is what we call the "Rolling X."




(find a pencil and a dull razor, then pretend to hone the razor on the pencil, the motion that you must use to cover the entire length of the cutting edge is the motion of the rolling x)

OK, if this is a contest to explain the rolling hone to Chris, here's my entry.

Imagine a super-smiling razor. So extremely smiley in fact that the blade profile is a half-circle. It helps also to picture it as a true wedge. Now lay that imaginary blade on a hone. It doesn't sit flat. The heel and toe taper away, and the middle part is thicker, so it rocks back and forth on this 'hull'.

That's all – you're just rolling it on its hull as it moves down the hone.