Wouldn't you need to tape that cuff to protect it from hone wear? Otherwise, wouldn't the angle be altered as it wore down, or would you need a separate one for each razor?
:roflmao
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Wouldn't you need to tape that cuff to protect it from hone wear? Otherwise, wouldn't the angle be altered as it wore down, or would you need a separate one for each razor?
:roflmao
Gents this is a long thread and I'm about to head up for some sleep soon so I hope this hasn't already been asked - but you've given to a question I've had for a few weeks.
If one does use tape on the spine when honing, then after some number of hones the angle of the edge will become measurably more angular and I think that's been proven out here pretty well!
However, if the tape is then removed for subsequent honing, would the original manufactured edge angle return? Or an angle fairly close to the original? It just seems intuitively that after removing the tape, that the "top" of the new edge angle would be the first bit of metal to connect to the stone along with the spine. After that edge "top" has been honed away, and once the stone is connecting to both the edge and spine again, the resulting angle of the edge would be damned close to what it was originally. Unless the width of the blade had been significantly reduced (say from 7/8 to 4/8).
It seems strange stuff keeps me awake at night!
Why do you have to remove the tape to set the bevel? On the last razor I sharpened, once I got it popping hairs off of a 1k stone, I added a layer of tape to set the bevel a little wider. This seemed to work very well... but as a newbie I don't really know how well it actually worked. Should I not do this anymore?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
Thanks,
SHuka
If you visualize it adding tape would cause a double bevel or you would have to hone completely through and beyond your existing bevel to create a wider bevel. In general a narrower bevel is preferable IMO. You live with what the geometry of the razor dictates.Quote:
Originally Posted by shuka
The question of taping a spine or not has been a hotly debated one with advocates on either side of the issue. Doing a forum search for "tape" and reading the threads would be very instructive if not even more confusing. :shrug:
IMO if you are new to honing taping the spine with one layer might be a good idea until you have your honing chops down. Once you feel competent and are getting consistent results you may decide to go one way or the other. I formerly was in the tape the spine camp but now find myself going the other way.
Hi Jimmy -
Actually, the way I found this thread was through searching for "tape" and "set" - and yeah, I'm confused!
Doesn't adding an extra piece of tape make the second bevel you mention (i.e. a micro bevel) a wider bevel at the edge of the blade? Then there is no need to hone beyond the existing bevel - in fact, this is why I don't understand why people set the bevel with tape, and then removed the tape. In that case I see why they would have to hone through the original, until the stone begins to "work" on the edge.
However, I guess from your reply that I don't have to worry about doing anything too bad. I think I'll keep adding tape, and maybe when I'm more confident I'll make a case for it (if I still find it working well).
Thanks -
Shuka
IMO if you have a lot of heavy work to do on an ebay special or a flea market find adding tape to set the bevel will save undue spine wear. Once the bevel is corrected if your preference is to hone sans tape then it won't take a significant amount of honing to get to a corrected bevel with the no tape geometry. So that is my take on why to do it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by shuka
Some people prefer a double bevel, notably Tim Zowada and Bart has recommended that in his coticule only honing thread. It is a matter of what each individual feels works best for them. There is some evidence that a double bevel may be stronger than a single and may actually require less work than a single bevel.
Right now I prefer a single but I haven't experimented with the double concept to come to a firm conclusion for myself. The one Zowada I have is an awesome shaver with the double but I haven't done any on the razors I've honed. Down the road a ways I will experiment with it. More fun & games. :)
tan A= opposite/adjacent=a/b
If the cutting edge is angle A. As hone wear reduces the spine thickness (side "a"), the edge honing also reduces total blade width (side "b"), thus maintaining edge geometry "A".
I think?
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The edge geometry remains the same only if the edge wear or blade width is reduced the same as the spine wear. Which I don’t think it is in all cases because there are way too many variables, type and quality of steel, amount of pressure, location of pressure, honing medium and stroke type are a few.
Additionally the only thing that matters is how it cuts facial hair and not all hair is the same. In speaking with barbers, they tell me it varies greatly from person to person and they all can feel the difference in the scissor.
I have been able to get some older, more spine worn razors to shave better for me with the use of tape and micro bevels.
Woodworkers and carvers have “tailored” blade angle for years depending on the application, type of wood, density, figure and desired finish. The majority of us do the same as we hone our razors to shave each of us best.
So yes the taped wider angle bevel does produce a thicker stronger bevel and there by edge, but does it work best for you? That is the question, at least it is for me.
So something else to think about… if angle matters, fine tuning the angle maybe just as important as the quest to find the best final polishing medium… that works for you.
I have been thinking a lot about this lately and I think you are right. That is why I am experimenting with honing without tape.Quote:
Originally Posted by M Martinez
When I first started I didn't feel confident enough in my skills and figured since I didn't really know what I was doing I might cause too much wear on the spine by going way overboard with the amount of strokes and pressure.
Now I do feel confident enough in my skill to avoid that. If it is an ebay or flea market special that needs extensive bevel correction I will still start out with tape until I feel the bevel is close enough to remove the tape and with a minimum amount of strokes correct it for the no tape geometry.
I have a feeling that over the long haul that will be best for the razor and for the shave.
A small reminder here,,, Setting a bevel with tape on an E-baybe, does not necessarily mean the when you go to reset without tape all will be good in the world.... If the spine was honed badly in the past, the tape helps to hide that, and get you a nice even bevel again on the edge... Take that tape off and start honing, and the old spine ruts are going to take the edge bevel back again....
There is quite a bit more to taping the spine then just saving the metal there....
Admittedly I am new to straight razors, but not new to sharpening and honing, so if my subsequent comments are deserving of a verbal smackdown feel free. But there are a couple flaws I can see in the "don't tape" argument.
The idea is that the angle is built in to the razor and you will maintain that angle by removing metal from both, however, the spine is so much thicker and has so much more material that you will not be removing metal at an even rate anyway. So the angle is not going to remain that perfect angle you imagine the razor is built with (I'll get to that in a minute) The effect would be similar, but not as potent as taping the spine.
Another thing that I have seen since starting to hone razors recently, with old razors particularly, is that the wear on the spine is not even. Heavy wear taken from one end or the other which is going to effect the blade shape now. I know the argument is that it was a bad/inexperienced honer and shouldn't have happened, but people aren't perfect. Taping the spine, with electrical tape particularly will keep the spine factory and maintain a better edge shape. The "built in honing guide" that people are talking about, it's being suggested that you grind that down as well? That idea doesn't make sense to me. You want the guide to remain perfect. Also as I pointed out above, what you are trying to acheive by taking the "guide" down as well is not working as ideally as you think, IMO.
Now, the edge geometry. Adding tape to spine will add a tiny amount to the angle. But lets say it's two degrees total, thats being generous. That comes into play in two places.
1. Depending on the steel, it can only handle a certain acuteness to the bevel. After a certain point you sacrafice edge quality. But there is no steel that I know of that would handle a MORE acute angle better than a less acute....therefore if a less acute angle will accomplish the task equally as well, it is the better edge geometry for longevity reasons.
2. The thickness of the blade where the edge starts is less than .5mm from what I have seen. The better option in my eyes would be a higher quality edge, than a sharper angle sacraficing some quality. When we are talking about a bevel that starts at .5mm the difference between 12 degrees and 14 degrees is not large.
So from what I can see the pros/cons of taping the spine weigh pretty heavily to the pro side. If the argument against it is simply a purists point of view more power to you. But taping provides some pretty great gains for very little loss imo. The answer about whether or not to tape would be provided by, IMO, what the steel can handle, not a hard and fast rule. Even then, from what I understand about it so far, I would probably tape it with something very thin, so as not to add significantly to the angle but keep the spine perfect.
Hi kids! It's been a while since I've checked in on this thread. Wow can one find a more controversial tech question?
My initial conclusion here was (and still is)that difference of bevel angle ground with the application of tape to the spine or without the application of tape to the spine is incidental. Therefore the only reason to tape the spine is to protect the spine. I want to make a quick point. Some have been proposing the idea that not taping the spine will allow for the edge and the spine to be ground uniformly thus maintaining a constant bevel angle. That is not true. The edge of the razor is going to wear much more rapidly than the spine and (especially in the case of full hollow ground razors) the edge will not wear so much in thickness as it will in width. What I mean is the 6/8 razor will begin approaching 5/8 at the very first stroke on a stone. This will cause the razor (over time) to actually rotate toward the edge with the necessary increase in bevel angle, tape or no tape. I wish I was smart enough to make a computer generated cartoon to show this. But I am hoping you get my drift.
Brad
I get what you are saying.
What I am saying is that even if you don't tape it, you are going to wear material away from the edge far more quickly than the material on the spine so you aren't really gaining anything know what I mean?
My friendly argument is, that the effect you are talking about in your above post is going to happen whether you tape the spine or not. It might happen faster if you tape it, but the difference would be negligable, and over a pretty large span of time imo. Great thread.
Exactly my initial conclusion. We are on the same page.
This was a very interesting read good points made and great debates. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by icedog
What is the reason for this? Physically speaking, assuming perfect honing, an untaped wedge should never have it's angle changed. Hollow grounds should perform the same, with the assumption that they are a perfect wedge with a gap. In reality, the shift should be towards the opposite end (the spine should wear slightly faster), as there is additional weight at the back of the razor creating greater friction.
The only thing that would account for increased friction (and thus increased metal removal) at the edge is if the filings from the edge impair the hone from being effective all the way to the spine or if the user pushes into, rather than along, the hone.
If the honing process results in a different wear rate of the spine versus the edge, then I think it is reasonable to assume that the bevel angle will change slightly each time the razor his honed. I recently bought a Hartsteel razor and the note that accompanied the razor said they recommend taping the spine during honing. The razor came shave ready and did give an excellent shave. If they used tape at the factory to set the initial bevel then I probably should continue to use tape every time I rehone it.
First, the honing process does not need to result in a different wear rate. It depends on where pressure is applied. The spine is mean to be an angle guide but it doesn't need to have a lot of pressure applied to it. If the razor is torqued during honing, much less steel is removed from the spine. Next, the taping of the spine is a recent phenomenon, as is the Hart razor. If they honed with tape, then you CAN touch up with tape. If you don't use tape, the very apex of the edge will not touch the hone, but only a minimum amount of steel needs to be removed from the bevel to alter its angle to allow normal, tapeless honing.
I'm hoping the image came acrsoss on the "quote" as well. It would be more like "B" being the tip of the edge of the blade, and "A" the highest point of the spine where "b" is 1/2 the thickenss of the total spine, and "h" well, it's an imaginary stright line, but it actually curves inward due to the hollow ground process, but it still exists, though not really visible. "a" is the center of the spine to blade edge, as "C" is the absolute center of the thickest part of the spine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
I tape old and brand new. Just me. Here's why. The spine wears but not necessarily in relationship to the edge. Why? Have you ever studied the process of griding the razors in videos? Wacker and other put the razor blank in a special holder and grind away at the top of the spine getting the curvature that they want. I believe there is some loss in tempering at that point, as there are always plenty of sparks as they grind away. They are not concenerned with the temper of the back of the blade, only the very edge. Therefore, the spine will not wear in the same relationship as the better tempered edge. Also, as Glen pointed out, the steep angle gives strength to the edge. It will be enough to get that 0.45 micron or less edge, but is less prone to bending over as one that has a lot of spine wear, and you hone it "au naturale" and get a really wide bevel and the edge of that long bevel has a really thin edge with not nearly as much metal on both sides to give it strength to prevent bending during cutting whiskers.
A 5 degree edge could get sharp, but be so thin that the first time you tried to cut anyting with it, the edge is gone, bent over. Even stropping agressively would keep bending it back and forth to the point the edge will simple not hold up, like metal that you keep bending back and forth over and over.
Also one of the reasons that I listen to the strop and blade when I strop. It makes a certain sound and if I keep stropping, it looses that sound and I think the fact of the ege going back and forth may degrade the edge, so I strop maybe 10-20 times just before shaving and get a beautiful soft smooth shave.
I think if the electrial tape was as well discussed in bygone days as it is on the internet it may have been more widely used. But, in those days, some had telephone and electrical tape was not invented by Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing (aka 3M) until 1946. Probably didn't get a lot of widespread publicity until 1950, so at that time, it was about the time of the demise of straight razor shaving for those going to single injector or other DE razors. King Gillette is to thank for that. Too bad Gillette doesn't come back into the business with straight razors, but they make too many billions off disposables at this point.