Holding an edge on a Friodur....

I have been using a Henckels Friodur for several months now and I have noticed something odd.

It was originally honed by Lynn and I consistantly get excellent shaves, but the edge does not seem to hold nearly as long as I would expect. My understanding is that the SS Friodur steel should hold an edge for quite a while (as compared to a carbon steel blade).

I find that I need to touch up the edge actually more often than my other razors in my rotation, mainly a Duck #1 and a Torrey. The Friodur will shave, hands-down better than the others, but only for a few days. Last week, I was on travel an only took the Friodur along to test it by itself (vice in my rotation). It made it to the end of the week, but I found myself using way too much pressure. A few passes (about 30) on a pasted strop and all is good.

The stropping technique and general care is the same for all of my razors. For touching up the edges, I use a Spyderco UF and finish up on a ChrO pasted strop. My guess is I may need to take it down to the Spyderco fine, then to the UF to re-set the edge a tad, but the bevel looks excellent under a scope. :shrug:

One of the reasons I wanted to go with a Friodur was the idea that they would hold an edge longer than carbon blades. Is there something additional I need to work on (or maybe tweak) with the care and feeding of my Friodur?

Thanks in advance!


v/r

Allen

Your techniques sound fine, if the edge is shaving at all, there is no need to go to a lower grit stone, the geometry won't change for the better if it changes at all.

Honestly, the Carbon Steel vs. Stainless Steel argument means nothing if the heat treat or tempering procedure was wrong. So it could just be that it was tempered to a lower hardness than your other blades, either on accident or otherwise.

The bottom line is that if it shaves better, it is better. Just keep a pasted strop around for quick touch ups.

I 've learned to hone with a Friodur as my practice razor. Something in your story reminds me of a similar thing I experienced for a while along my learning curve. Maybe, it was the same cause as your problem. I'm not sure.
This is what happened in my case: my honing sequence was honing on a Coticule and a subsequent stropping on a pasted strop with red Dovo paste, which actually doesn't make sense, grit-wise, but I didn't knew any better back then.
What I also did not know, was that my razors edge was a bit rounded, only barely, but enough to NOT allow the coticule to touch the very edge of the cutting bevel. I later learned how I could spot that condition with the help of a good light source, rather than looking through my stereo microscope at 40X, thanks to Josh Earl for that.
Anyway. Because there's always some slack in a strop, the pasted strop did touch the edge, and drew out some edge. The shaves from that edge were actually better than what one might expect. BUT they didn't last long. Each time I used that pasted strop, I made the already convex tip of the bevel more convex. In the end it seemed like my razor got duller from honing than it got sharper. Very frustrating. I had read about setting a proper bevel and understood what it was all about. Unfortunately I was working with the misapprehension that I could set a bevel with a Belgian Blue Whetstone, which is often rated the same grit-size as the Norton 4K. I did several hundred laps. And it didn't improve my bevel one micron.

Maybe you can make something out of this for your situation.
I disagree with Russel. It would cost you only a tiny bit of metal to start over again with that Friodur and make sure that you are polishing a good bevel. Now that Heavydutysg135 posted his outstanding video series, there's little excuse left not to do so. It would rule out the above possibility. I'm not sure if you can shave right of a Spyderco UF (I have no experience with them), but I suppose with proper stropping on a clean leather strop you can. In that case I would stay away from that CrO strop for now, as it can mask a poor honing job, in the way that you describe.
As soon as you're sure that Friodur is holding its edge, you can try "ultrahoning" it on the CrO-strop again.

Hope this helps. Friodurs indeed are great shavers.

Good luck,
Bart.

Usually when a razor only seems to shave properly for a very few shaves the issue is one of it being marginally sharp so its starts out fine and quits pretty soon but usually unless you have a really fine beard it would only last a couple shaves at most. If the edge was rounded or not being sharpened at all you would feel that from the very first stroke. If the bevel looks fine under magnification I wouldn't mess with it. Its either good or its not no inbetweens there unless it has a double or triple bevel and you would see that with magnification also.

If your other razors are doing fine then we know its not a shaving technique issue and since you can maintain your other razors it should not be a maint. technique issue unless these is something very different with that razor. So where does that leave us?

Maybe your expectations with the razor are just unreasonable? I find on the average after about 12-15 shaves with a razor I need to touch them up with very few exceptions. Stainless, I find may only get you a few shaves more over a typical carbon. yea I know there are some guys who say they can shave for a year with the same razor and never need so much as a touchup and if that's the case I'm in awe of them. For us mere mortals that's not what we can expect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

.... Because there's always some slack in a strop, the pasted strop did touch the edge, and drew out some edge. The shaves from that edge were actually better than what one might expect. BUT they didn't last long. Each time I used that pasted strop, I made the already convex tip of the bevel more convex. ....

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The pasted "strop" is actually a rigid paddle balsa strop, but my thoughts now drift toward the regular strop. The only real variable I can find is the Friodur is a larger blade (7/8) than my others. I am beginning to question if I am rolling the edge a tad compared to the other blades when stropping due to the larger blade (and much thicker spine). I will make a point to slow down on both the linen and leather strop and perhaps re-tweak my technique.

I think at this point, I may just take the blade back to the fine Spyderco for 20 or so passes, then up to the UF and really take it slow and focus on a smooth, even technique. Follow it with a touch up on the pasted balsa strop. Since I have never really had an issue with over-honing from the UF (dumb luck perhaps?) I would think I can safely work the edge on the UF and eliminate any rounded edge. Right now, I can't see any rolled edge; in fact the bevel actually looks nicely uniform with very fine striations so I would think going back down to the fine and working up may help with what I can't see.

Another point well taken is that I may in fact have unrealistic expectations for a SS blade. I have to admit I have not done the same objective test (shaving with the same blade daily for a week) to really compare how well the edge is holding. Maybe I was expecting Excalibur from a mere mortal blade :roflmao

Thanks for the input. Anyone else who has any ideas from playing with these please jump in- it would be greatly appreciated!

v/r

Allen

If you have an edge that only holds up for a week you either have a bum blade or you are doing something wrong, and if this is the case, it's likely in the stropping of the blade. Maybe you could give us some information about your stropping?

You mention it was honed by Lynn when you got it. Did the edge honed by Lynn last longer than edges honed by you? If so the problem might be related to you honing technique, if not it might either be your stropping technique or the quality of the blade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kees

You mention it was honed by Lynn when you got it. Did the edge honed by Lynn last longer than edges honed by you? If so the problem might be related to you honing technique, if not it might either be your stropping technique or the quality of the blade.

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Actually, the edge didn't hold well when I initially received it which is why I am now questioning my stropping technique vice the honing.

This blade is significantly thicker and wider compared to my others (this is a Spanish point 7/8 form Jim). Since I started wondering about this, I have become much more conscious of my stropping to slow down a bit and hold a better tension, but I haven't really noticed an issue while stropping. I am just more deliberate now.

BTW I use a 3" barber strop- I think it is an Illinois but it is very old so the ID is difficult. I inherited it and it is in excellent condition. If the strop itself was an issue, I would think it would be more readily aparent with my other blades.


:shrug:


v/r

Allen

But if your other razors are working as they should then I would guess it is not a stropping problem. The larger size should make it easier to keep the blade flat if anything (at least, this is the case in my experience).

So I would say, again, it could just be the blade.

Let us know what happens, as this is an unusual case.

Edit: just to calrify, Bart, what I meant was that a more obtuse angle would hold it's edge just as a much as a more acute angle would. And since he said it was honed by Lynn and just refreshed CrO, it shouldn't have rounded the edge to a point that the UF couldn't handle. So going to a lower grit would just add possibilities for error in polishing etc. Sorry I was too vague earlier.

Alan, how many passes do you do on the strop? You may try and increase the number of passes on the strop and see what it does. If you do not use linen/canvas first you may even try that. Genuine linen does wonders for me.