Strange Norton stone :hmmm:

Look what Norton sent to me, when I ordered a 4/8K combo!! Should I return it??

:p

actually, I took my Norton stone to a stone mason this morning, and he split it in half. It was the 3" hone to start with, now it's 2x1.5". Well, actually a bit smaller, the diamond coated saw was around 1/4" in width. It made an wasy job cutting the stone, it looked like the saw didn't even noticed the hone was there, lol...

I know some of you guys want slimmer Norton stone, and Kelly already cut his (but not lenght wise), so I encourage you to do it...

cheers,
Nenad

edit: the pics were supposed to be the other way round...

Neat!

That's is VERY strange, I can't even think of a good reason to manufacture a hone in that manner.

Although I sold my Nortons some time ago, I've actually thought about getting a narrow Norton 4000 and 8000. toolsforworkingwood.com sells 1.5" wide Nortons they rip down the center just like you did. I have plenty of narrow higher grit naturals for warped blades but no narrow lower grit stones. Your guy you took yours to did a great job on the clean cut. You'll get good use out of those narrow stones.

Chris L

Ha!:) I just spoke with you this morning on Skye and you already have this done! Good job!:tu

I would send you my hone but you live in Skopje Macedonia so the postage would be a bit high.:)

Guys... Nenad is a long time member here and has done some very good graphics for us in the past. I think he said that he has about 25 razors now. This morning, about 3 AM my time, we were discussing our preference for narrow hones and also different shaped hones. Now I have to take time to get my Norton combo hone cut down. I have wanted to do that for a long time. I like those hones!:)

That's a great job you had done Nenad! It occured to me just now that
1. I prefer narrow hones,
2. They seem more effective when honing since you are almost forced to use the X,
3. It will save on wear- when lapping, you will only really lap half of the hone and the other half will be uneffected as long as you haven't used it!

Now where to find a stone mason...

Thanx guys, I see you like my new hones...

I have use them today, and I must say they are way more effective than the wider hone. They feel bit akward to use, because of their thickness, but it's a matter of habit.

There are two more options with these stones: Separating the hones grit wise, but given the thickness, I think that would be a waste of material, and plus you would have to glue them on something, like a tile or so, in order to give them more stabiliy, ana second,
sawing them in half, making 4x4" stones. This is actually a good idea, since it will force more agressive X pattern, not allowing the middle of the blade to spend much time on the hone, thus allowing the formation of a frown... The 8" norton is too long for a razor hone, I think...

don't be afraid to cut yours :p

cheers,
Nenad

The 8" norton is too long for a razor hone, I think...

As you and I discussed a few minutes ago I think your right. Now its time to play with different shapes and lengths of hones to get a hone where the razors heel and toe stay on the hone longer than the middle of the razor. That will result in "smile" shape to the razors edge profile.

Guys, ...Nenad and I were discussing the shape of a scythe stone. The idea I had been playing around with for a few months was a hone about 1" wide on both ends and 2" or 3" in the center. Then measuring the distance that the heel, toe and middle of the razor would be on the hone during a lap. Shortly after that Nenad realized that the length of his hone was giving him a problem.
So now it iis time to do some drawing and measuring and design a better razor hone.:)

I may just end up with a hone size like the classic old natural stones.
1.25" x 5". The old timers had just as much smarts as we do now.Plus they had many years of experience.:)

Well, honing with the new narrower hone, I realized that I have put a frown in the edge of one of my softer steel blades in just 10 minutes. That makes me think that the middle of the razor is spending too much time on the stone, equal pressure given.

I also think that the best razor hone is sized 1.25"x5", or even 1.25x4". I would say that the size evolved with years, and that the hones were made that way because that is the ideal size for razor, and not lack of materials, as was previosely argued when discussing the same topic (which is not new, more info can be found if searching).

Next, I am gonna limit the honing surface on my new 1.5 inch wide Norton hone to 4 or 5 inches in lenght, and see how it goes. I already did this in the past, progressing from the Lithide hone (around 5" in lenght), to the Norton yellow, using the same stroke on the Norton as I was using on the Lithide hone.

Nenad

Nenad, will you post your results of using the Norton 1.25 x 5"? I'm curious if it will solve your problem. It never occured to me that longer hones could cause a frown but I can see where the problem may arise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philadelph

Nenad, will you post your results of using the Norton 1.25 x 5"? I'm curious if it will solve your problem.

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Usually, when I use the Norton hone, I use a smaller portion of the stone, and not the whole width. That has to do with experience and habit from using other hones, both natural and synthetic, that are shorter in size. But, I have a theory how a wider stone might prevent overhoning the middle of the blade.

When the Norton hone is it's normal width, 3 inch, what happens is that the tip of the razor spends more time on the hone, and it is on it from the very beggining of the stroke, thus not allowing the pressure to be concentrated on the middle section of the blade. This poses other problems, like preventing the blade to be sharpened evenly, because no razor blade is completely straight, and when the blade is laying on a 3 inch hone, with it's whole lenght, there will be only a small portion of it in contact with the stone. Refer to this thread for more info. There used to be pictures in it, explaining my point graphically, but there gone...

http://straightrazorpalace.com/basic...-pyramids.html

When using a 1.25-1.5 inch hone, the heel and middle of the razor contact the hone first, allowing every part of the hone to touch the blade, and the pressure is more concentrated in the middle, overhoning it. I think what should be done is to force more aggresive X pattern, with a stroke ranging in lenght ot more than 4-4.5 inches, to prevent overhoning the middle portion...


Nenad

with a stroke ranging in lenght ot more than 4-4.5 inches, to prevent overhoning the middle portion...


?????

not more than

or

more than?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

with a stroke ranging in lenght ot more than 4-4.5 inches, to prevent overhoning the middle portion...


?????

not more than

or

more than?

---

typo, "ot" might be both "lot" and "not"

I ment NOT more than that :)

So... a "stroke" length of ....

May I translate that as meaning a stroke that covers a length of the hone not more than 4 1/2 "? If so, then we can add 1" to 1 1/2" to the length of the hone itself for a total of 5 1/2" to 6". Then add another 1/2" for the various sized razors over 5/8" and we have a hone length of 6 1/2" or 7" max. The whole point is to use a stroke that has the middle of the blade edge on the hone less than the heel or the toe of the razors edge. This will avoid the dreaded "frown" edge profile and consequently result in a "smile" edge profile.

Just my two cents,:)

The first thing I thought when I saw this was, "Why didn't you split it the other way as well"? thinking that hone was too long. What a great way to get your money's worth out of a fairly pricey stone. That'd be about 4 swaty like stones at $20 each, just what you'd expect. My main concern, and one you seem to be running into, is that new waterstones are not the same as the old barber hones and may require a different attack. Certainly the shorter size demands a more precise stroke. Something I've recognized in the 2 1/2 years that it took me to get any positive results from a barber hone at all.

X

I've always preferred hones from 1" to 2" wide by 4" to 6" long (knife or razor). Although larger is great for lapping hones.

If Norton would make one of those a factory option, I'd order my first Norton 4k/8k.

So Nenad are you thoroughly happy with the choice to cut your Norton? I'm thinking of doing it as well. Ever think of cutting 1-2" off of the length? This would make the stone 1.25/1.5" x 6/7" and would give you a smaller stone (the cut off piece) to raise a slurry if you want.

A slurry/rubbing/refreshing/cleaning stone is always useful IMHO.

This explains why I have always been confused by all the "uneven honing" talk while i was using my 2"x4" slip stones.

When honing on them the stroke is more of a 45 degree slash than a long slide.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xman

The first thing I thought when I saw this was, "Why didn't you split it the other way as well"? thinking that hone was too long.

X

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Yep, I thought of that, but I was afraid that the hone would be too short. That's why I opted for cutting it lenghtwise first, limit the use of one half, and see how it goes. So far, so good, so maybe I'll make 4 hones out of my Norton stone :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philadelph

So Nenad are you thoroughly happy with the choice to cut your Norton? I'm thinking of doing it as well. Ever think of cutting 1-2" off of the length? This would make the stone 1.25/1.5" x 6/7" and would give you a smaller stone (the cut off piece) to raise a slurry if you want.

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Yes, happy, no regrets at all, more so that it is difficult to get one of the Norton hones here, in Macedonia. I thought of cutting a small slurry stone, but I use pumice stone for lapping my Norton, and Nortons need no slurry to be effective, so I left it like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

This explains why I have always been confused by all the "uneven honing" talk while i was using my 2"x4" slip stones.

When honing on them the stroke is more of a 45 degree slash than a long slide.

---

True, just like on a barber hone... A quick run diagonally, and the stroke's done...

Once again, In my personal experience, I think the best way to use the Norton is to make 2 (or 4) stones out of it...


cheers,
Nenad

I have cut a number of different stones to sizes requested by customers. The size most requested is 1" wide and I think that's the size on the David Polan videos. His is a coticule. In addition to David's, I've also cut belgian natural combos to one inch wide and belgian blues as well. I haven't cut a Norton yet but would be willing to do so. I've the 1k/4k and 4k/8k stones in stock.

So a couple days ago I went on a wild goose chase for someone to cut my hone. I went to a granite place which pointed me to this guys machine shop. Once I found his shop it was a strange experience. He was a crazy guy and didn't have a diamond saw but started wondering how he could cut my hone. Besides talking about his drinking problems he was thinking out loud like, "I wonder if my bandsaw could do it..."

Well, without asking he took it over to the bandsaw (large industrial metal cutting type) and started into the middle by eyeballing it. I was about to start grabbing for the hone but he said it was working. So he takes some calipers and measures a center line down the hone. He starts back at the bandsaw and luckily it seems like there is no chipping or anything- it was just very slow cutting. SO then he calls me over and says "here, just hold this with steady pressure" and lets ME cut the hone at HIS saw! Is that a liability issue or what?!? He also said to watch my fingers cause he didn't want a lawsuit. Anyway, it took a WHILE and might have even dulled his blade, who knows. In the end it worked pretty damn well though! Came out with two even sides (although roughed up along the cut) almost 1.5 inches wide each. The blade obviously didn't have as much kerf as a table saw would. I took THEM home and lapped all surfaces and am thoroughly pleased.

Would I suggest doing this? No. But hey, I think I lucked out by not coming home with my 4k/8k in pieces and am actually happier than when I started. I'll post some picks when I take some.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chrisl

Although I sold my Nortons some time ago, I've actually thought about getting a narrow Norton 4000 and 8000. toolsforworkingwood.com sells 1.5" wide Nortons they rip down the center just like you did. I have plenty of narrow higher grit naturals for warped blades but no narrow lower grit stones. Your guy you took yours to did a great job on the clean cut. You'll get good use out of those narrow stones.

Chris L

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Really glad that Chris mentioned the narrow Nortons available at Tools for working wood. I bought a set of 1K,4K, and 8K 8"X1 1/2". I love the darn things, The feedback on them is great and I can do the rolling X more easily then with a 3" wide stone. I am having much better luck with a big Rogers wedge that has a warped blade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superfly

Thanx guys, I see you like my new hones...

I have use them today, and I must say they are way more effective than the wider hone. They feel bit akward to use, because of their thickness, but it's a matter of habit.

There are two more options with these stones: Separating the hones grit wise, but given the thickness, I think that would be a waste of material, and plus you would have to glue them on something, like a tile or so, in order to give them more stabiliy, ana second,
sawing them in half, making 4x4" stones. This is actually a good idea, since it will force more agressive X pattern, not allowing the middle of the blade to spend much time on the hone, thus allowing the formation of a frown... The 8" norton is too long for a razor hone, I think...

don't be afraid to cut yours :p

cheers,
Nenad

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First thing I did when I got my Norton was 1/4 er it. Better all round imo.

PuFF

It looks much better now. Like a Norton on Slim Fast!
I can see the benefits of having a narrow Norton. Narrow finishing hones are easy to get a hold of. But it is difficult (Nigh on impossible), to find a narrow hone in the coarser grits in order to do the donkey work.
Good work, and I hope to join the club soon.

Connor