Printable View
What do you guys do in terms of the chinese 12k? Wet or dry while honing? The box obviously states to use water, but those pics on Zowadas website always seemed to show a better edge while honing dry. I have done both and can't say I've come to a conclusion yet. Dry feels more natural for that particular stone- smoother maybe. Just curious if anyone has a preference.
I've used mine only wet so far.
I have used mine both ways and I don't think that I can tell any difference. It's so hard and slow cutting that I don't think it removes that much steel while polishing. I feel that it is probably best for the stone to use it wet so that's the method that I have landed on. FWIW, I'm only using it after a coticule.
If I'm using it to finish up a razor with a new edge, I use it wet always. However, I have used it dry when I wanted a minor touchup to a razorr that's had slight use; one it was faster than getting it wet/soaking, and two it felt finer/smoother while honing like you stated.
I use mine wet...always. I want the swarf to be moved out of the way.
I also have found that it works nicely in a progression of 8K-coticule-escher-chinese 12k-chrome ox.
One day, I'll lower the level of my stubbornness and add one of those to my collection. You guys' posting about them here is bad for my wallet.
In fact, most of the things on this site are bad for my wallet.
John P.
Well, on the bright side, the Chinese 12K is nowhere near as bad for your wallet as a lot of other things. Of course the cumulative effect can be quite bad but the 12K by itself is a great deal!
Come over to the dark side!
Funny thing I saw this thread. Just last night I used my 12K dry while refreshing a few edges. WOW!!!!!! what a difference that made. I have used the 12K wet during honing. But last night was a revelation for me. I had my buddy with me, also a straight shaver, and he could not believe how sharp they were. I did get it wet between blades to remove any deposits but then proceeded to dry it before I got started on the next blade. I am going to try to use it dry during a complete honing job when I get one but for now if I have to refresh an edge...dry stone it will be.
Raf
Have you shave-tested any of the blades? Are they smooth-feeling on the face, as well as sharp?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio
I have usually used it dry and gotten great results as well. That and those pics on Zowada's site of the dry 12k honing scratches on the bevel made me think that dry might be better, but I wanted other opinions here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio
Oh yeah, they shave great when using wet or dry. As I just said I usually use them dry and get awesome edges that last. Off the top of my head I can't remember liking the wet edges better, but I don't think I've ever really done a side by side comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveS
I find the whole wet/dry debate interesting. I was under the impression that with softer stones, you would cut faster but not get as fine an edge with water because a slurry forms. And with harder stones that won't form a slurry, I thought water formed some kind of a buffer to allow for a finer edge. Is that not universal?
Perhaps a wet vs dry summery for various stones in a sticky? Then again, it might vary from razor to razor and based on each person's individual technique.
I shaved yesterday with one of the blades I dry honed(refreshed edge) on the 12k. Let me tell you it was smooooooooth!!!!! The blade was a Crown & Sword 5/8. That blade was never that smooth. I was going to sell it but now I am reconsidering.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveS
Raf
This post has given me greater initiative to dust off my Chinese 12K and put it back in honing rotation; Admittedly I've only used it a few times and purchased it just before going whole hog on the Shaptons.
The way I've neglected the 12K, I harken back to 2.5+ decades ago when I was in Junior High School. The 12K on my honing shelf is like the new kid that you know would be a great person to befriend, but instead you brush him off and ignore him. Worse yet, I'm like a disrespectful bully; I've been using it as a flat surface to tape my chromed newspaper to for edge polishing! Man do I feel guilty now! Especially since I was never a bully in school!:eek:
Chris L
I will be giving this a try tomorrow. Very interesting thread!:tu
My 12k seems to polish the metal better when used dry, but feels like it cuts faster with water. I can't really tell the difference in the shave quality either way. Both are great.
Most natural finishing stones do well dry, just depends on the stone I guess. The Muller Thuringian that I have does better dry than it does wet, but one of my vintage Thuringers prefers water; trial and error is half the fun of natural stones! They each have their own personality. :)
Okay Randy, times up. Have you tried it dry yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
Not yet but tomorrow will be a good time to try it. I may have 3-4 razors to hone tomorrow!:)
i like mine done wet. infact i keep a cup of water next to me while honing so that i can put a few drops of water on the hone when it dries out on top. thats my vote
~J
ps. i love the chinese 12k. still gets my vote as a top notch finisher especially at that price its unbeatable.
:OTI feel the same way about the Spyderco Fine and UF hones, and even my combo coticule. Big difference when wet v dry when cutting, but not much difference on the shave feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge
If I recall correctly, the pictures on Zowada's website showed that most stones gave a finer bevel finish with NO slurry vs. with slurry. In the paragraph before the pictures it says that ALL stones were used wet, except the spyderco which was used dry. Spyderco recommends that you use the ultra fine stone dry.
Ben
I always thought that using water/oil on a sharpening stone was solely to remove the grit particles from the stone. In theory, this removal would enable better contact between blade and stone ... vs. blade/shavings/stone.
Also, it is my perception that this grit removal would play a larger part with lower grit stones... to keep the shavings out of the recesses of the stone. Since the 12k is such a dense and fine grit stone I would think that the edge would easily just push these loose particles out of the way, keeping the good blade to stone contact.
Sure. I think there is a difference between wet and dry on a 12k. It's just a really small difference. So small in fact, that the edge would be properly polished before any real differences arise.
Well, it's just a theory ... lol
Randy, you find that the chinese has enough of an edge on the escher to warrant this progression?Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
I'm surprised. I have a chinese but I rarely use it; I think of it as a good (if slower) equivalent to the Y/G, and a nice big backup if God forbid I ever break the escher. But the edges I get from it don't seem any finer, and certainly not enough to warrant progressing.
But I tend to take your honing advice as gospel – it has yet to fail me – so maybe I need to play with the chinese more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dylandog
Please don't do that. I am the same as the rest of you. I experiment just to see what happens. When I did that progression it was on a few razors, not hundreds, and it was using my natural stones, not yours.
Your mileage will vary for sure. Frankly, I probably should not have made that post until I had about 100 razors honed using that progression..
It is my guesstimate that I probably started with an edge less that optimal off the 8k so I had a bit of room to play with. Also, the C12k had not been freshly lapped so it was "broken in" and less aggressive. But the edge felt sharper.
What I did notice was that each of the natural hones first dulled the edge left by the previous hone and required more than 50 laps on each hone to start getting the edge back and somewhere between 100-200 laps for a very sharp edge on each hone. The changes were measured using the TPT and the HHT, not the shave test.
If you want to try something really interesting try 100-600 laps on a natural stone and test every 100 laps. Over 400 and the changes are minimal.
BTW, you can overhone with a natural hone. I did it with a coticule on more than one razor. Used wet, no slurry. Took about 600 laps.
Thanks for the warning. Note to self: Never more than 550 strokes on the coticule!Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
:HJI have noticed this in my coticule adventures...WTF? :thinking:Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
Does this make sense in any way? A bevel is a bevel is a bevel...right? Conceptually, different cutting media shapes in the stone matrix shouldn't make a damn bit of difference, yet it most certainly does.
This makes me eye my hones suspiciously....are they plotting against me at night...trying to drive me MAD???
if the surfaces are either lapped, or similarly curved i think it reduces this effect.. when stones are differently dished and worn, and sized, the strokes become different, and the bevels changes ever so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by joke1176
when folks think that " a think little peice of tape doesnt really change the bevel angle" they are crazy. a little bit of tape changes the angle a little bit, and this is a razors edge!