How do you assess and use feedback from a stone?

I was just wondering what differences there might be between how we each pay attention to and use the feedback given by a particular stone (or hone). I have heard guys talk about the sound that the blade makes on different honing surfaces, as well as the amount of resistance to movement of the blade.

I tend to disregard everything but actual tests of the edge's keen-ness and smoothness; I also don't really get any useful information from the tactile or audible experiences during the honing process. I mean, the difference between the various stones/hones doesn't seem to affect my technique or, for that matter, results. :shrug:

So I guess my question is the title for the thread, as well as whether you depend on feedback for determining anything about the edge's progress.

Russel,

I like to watch the way water (or sometimes slurry) runs up the edge / is pushed in a wave in front of the edge.
I can see it when a part of the edge stays behind, for whatever reason. Often it also offers me some guidance in making better contact with those blades, or in performing a nicely balanced rolling X, when required.

Apart from that, I don't see, feel, hear or smell any disguised message coming from my hones.
I rely on the TPT mainly, and on the HHT for bevel-setting (I don't leave my DMT1200 before I can pop a hair off the tip, middle and heel of a razor)

Best regards,
Bart.

I've noticed some natural stones, like takashima tomae do have a distinct smell. But there's not enough smellers in my collection to judge any certain qualities. I can judge hardness of an unknown by the speed of its slurrying, and how much metal is being cut by the amount of swarf in that slurry, but can't we all.

such things are good for evaluation of a new stone in the lineup, comparisons to similar hones etc.

I have never counted strokes, but I look to see what's happening. We can watch the wave, but what it does is dependent on speed, down force, depth of slurry .... you need the context of how you do it, I think, to form any conclusions.


My hobby work, craft,art serves a function for me as a development of intuition, the eye, the feel. So while I try to be observant, I prefer to let the input soak in, rather than over analyze. I try to be helpful when I feel my experience may be add to a discussion, but I am no teacher so it can be difficult to communicate, some things sometimes intentionally internalized.

On my Sypderco's, esp the fine, I find that the blade gives a bit more resistance as the edge becomes keen. It's similar to the way a keen edge provides more draw when I am stropping. The same goes for my Swaty.

But that varies from hone to hone. On my King (which is only a 1k), more resisitance usually means that I need a bit more water because whatever was in/on the stone is beginning to evaporate/dry off.

I find with natural stones if the stone is highly polished there is to tactile feel as you hone to tell you what is happening but with my coticule which is not really polished vs my vintage escher which is if you use a really light touch on the hone you can detect a change as the blade hones up. Its subtle but its there. if you apply any pressure you lose it though.

Funny you should mention smell. being a rockhound from way back, all natural rocks have a particular smell depending on their makeup. Some are very strong earth smells and some not so much and some entirely different. Usually the more porous the rock the more it smells. Clay minerals seem to smell the most. What does this have to do with honing? Nothing really.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

On my Sypderco's, esp the fine, I find that the blade gives a bit more resistance as the edge becomes keen. It's similar to the way a keen edge provides more draw when I am stropping. The same goes for my Swaty.

But that varies from hone to hone. On my King (which is only a 1k), more resisitance usually means that I need a bit more water because whatever was in/on the stone is beginning to evaporate/dry off.

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I use the spyderco F & UF, and I noticed the extra resistance that lets me know when I am getting sharp enough.

Well, I sometimes listen, but primarily feel for the blade's progress along the hone. I also use the TPT after every few laps to chart the progress with how it feels on my thumb.

X

I usually get a tactile "feeling" when the edge is working the hone correctly. Hard to describe. I get the same sort of feeling when sharpening a knife, only it's more subtle with a razor.

I depend on the standard edge tests regardless of any other feedback.

I get a clear resistance feeling, a vacuum sucking down type feeling when the blade is honed to the optimum.

The hone has to be wet. The resistance is stronger on my clay based hones and less on the belgian hone.

What I find is that there is no resistance until the edge is polished to the grit of the hone . When I feel the resistance, I will do one more return to check the feeling and then stop and move onto a new hone or change from slurry to just water.

I find if I hone on against the resistance, I am reducing rather than developing the edge.

This resistance feeling for me at least was the first time I started to understand what worked and what didn't.

You know the vacuum feeling you get when you use a rubbing stone on a hone to get a slurry and the way the vacuum gets stronger as the slurry thickens........... Well it's that sort of feeling but much less obvious. The blade sort of sucks downwards once the ridges even out to the grade of the hone.

Well it does for me at least. I hone very lightly, but I do use my second hand to ensure the blade is flat on the hone.

Thanks guys, great input.

Do any of you find the sound of the blade on the hone beneficial?

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Thanks guys, great input.

Do any of you find the sound of the blade on the hone beneficial?

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Unless there's something really wrong, like grit contamination, the sound a hone makes doesn't tell me anything.

Bart.

Well, I am able to feel if something is not right. But I cannot really tell by feel or sound whether the edge is "there". Although on some hones there can be, as someone already mentioned, a suction-type feel. But really, all that tells me is the bevel is as flat as my hone - has no direct info. (as far as I am aware) about whether the two sides of the bevel are meeting at a nice point or not. But I suppose if you combine that feel with the knowledge that you've gotten your edge close on a previous grit, there may be something in that. :shrug:

But it is an interesting question. I bet people would be able to tell what hone they are using (of their own hones, I mean) in a blindfold test. I reckon I could. Each type has a very different feel to it.

James.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Well, I am able to feel if something is not right. But I cannot really tell by feel or sound whether the edge is "there". Although on some hones there can be, as someone already mentioned, a suction-type feel. But really, all that tells me is the bevel is as flat as my hone - has no direct info. (as far as I am aware) about whether the two sides of the bevel are meeting at a nice point or not. But I suppose if you combine that feel with the knowledge that you've gotten your edge close on a previous grit, there may be something in that. :shrug:

But it is an interesting question. I bet people would be able to tell what hone they are using (of their own hones, I mean) in a blindfold test. I reckon I could. Each type has a very different feel to it.

James.

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The only sound I recognize is that unpleasant high-pitched *grinch* sound the razor makes when there is a foreign body on the stone or in the slurry. It makes me wince when I hear that.:(

As far as blindfold guessing: I know I could. But then again I mostly use a combo coticule, DMT's and Spyderco's...talk about a night and day difference!

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

But it is an interesting question. I bet people would be able to tell what hone they are using (of their own hones, I mean) in a blindfold test. I reckon I could. Each type has a very different feel to it.

James.

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I'd wager that most guys could tell a Coticule apart from a Thuringer by feel alone, not to mention a Nakayama, if they had used one or two of each previously. But between different stones of the same type, that'd be a challenge.

I tend to use the sound that a hone makes when I make a relative grit comparison between various stones, more sound usually equals coarser grit.

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Originally Posted by English

I get a clear resistance feeling, a vacuum sucking down type feeling when the blade is honed to the optimum.

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Same here. Although with razors that have very narrow bevels, it's hard to feel it.

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Do any of you find the sound of the blade on the hone beneficial?

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You know, I do. I find that the sound of the blade on stone changes significantly enough for me to hear the difference when the blade gets enough work on a stone to warrant moving to a higher grit. This is all without errant grit mind you. It seems like the sound gets softer, smoother, or even more pleasant as the blade gets sharper on a stone. I know I'm not the only guy who listens for it. I think Howard does too. Mind you I don't base my honing on the sound alone, but I use it as a part of the whole "feel" process of assessment.

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Originally Posted by Philadelph

You know, I do. I find that the sound of the blade on stone changes significantly enough for me to hear the difference when the blade gets enough work on a stone to warrant moving to a higher grit. This is all without errant grit mind you. It seems like the sound gets softer, smoother, or even more pleasant as the blade gets sharper on a stone. I know I'm not the only guy who listens for it. I think Howard does too. Mind you I don't base my honing on the sound alone, but I use it as a part of the whole "feel" process of assessment.

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Well Alex, I'm not surprised about that. After all, being a superb bass player, makes you a trained professional listener. I've met more than one bass player that has the ability to distinguish very small changes in pitch, harmonics and overall sonority. Most other mortals don't, he added just a tad envious...:D

Bart.

In addition to feel, sound, and smell, I use a mind trick a stamp collector told me. He said that when someone wants to remove a stamp from an envelope, he must think of removing the envelope from the stamp. It works. I have removed stamps, decals, labels, and tape from things easier if I thought of removing the OBJECT from the stamp, decals, or tape instead of removing the stamp, decal, tape, etc. Is this a form of Zen?...I consider the surface of the hone moving against the blade, not the blade moving against the surface of the hone, and exactly what is happening where blade and hone make contact. My smiling blades demand this technique. All depends on what mood I am in. Honing to me is a profound experience. I am grateful that I do not have to rush getting it done. I watched a barber hone a razor. He did it so fast that it looked dangerous! Time is money for him. Thankfully honing is just a deep satisfying accomplishment in my world.

Now that's a unique approach!

I too enjoy the experience of honing, something strangely soothing about the repetition and concentration of the whole thing.

BTW, nice dog Timberr!

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Originally Posted by timberrr59

In addition to feel, sound, and smell, I use a mind trick a stamp collector told me. He said that when someone wants to remove a stamp from an envelope, he must think of removing the envelope from the stamp. It works. I have removed stamps, decals, labels, and tape from things easier if I thought of removing the OBJECT from the stamp, decals, or tape instead of removing the stamp, decal, tape, etc. Is this a form of Zen?...I consider the surface of the hone moving against the blade, not the blade moving against the surface of the hone, and exactly what is happening where blade and hone make contact. My smiling blades demand this technique. All depends on what mood I am in. Honing to me is a profound experience. I am grateful that I do not have to rush getting it done. I watched a barber hone a razor. He did it so fast that it looked dangerous! Time is money for him. Thankfully honing is just a deep satisfying accomplishment in my world.

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Amen brother, amen.

Honing is a multisensory experience. I use everything I've got. I feel the steel and stone working together with my fingers. I listen to the steel on the stone. I look at the steel pattern coming off onto the stone. I watch the way the slurry is moving. I don't notice different smells when I am honing but agree with the others that different stones smell differently. To test a stone I don't know, I rub it hard and fast with the heel of my hand to produce friction and that will raise the smell of the stone (make sure your hands are clean and you haven't eaten an onion/garlic blue cheese sandwich just before). Arkansas stones especially have a distinct smell and the belgians do as well.