What about a honing contest?

Hey Ron:

I hope it's consolation to you that if at this point you received a razor from me to critique, it would only be a razor that after much labor, fine tuning, more labor, more fine tuning, a bunch of swearing and the like, it would hopefully shave as good as your 4/8ths did. You and I both want to learn and we're both in the same boat. If someone asked me at that point how I'd rate my own honing ability, I'd say thankfully I get lucky enough to have some razors that are sharp enough to shave with on a daily basis. I need SO much more practice (TIME is the factor for me) and an assessment like this will only help that or if anything give me even more motivation to work at getting better.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by Chris L

Bart, I like your plan. Thank you for thinking it up. I hope it materializes and I thank you in advance for you volunteering to take this on.

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Well, it was just an idea sneaking up on me after your "accreditation" thread, which makes it "all your fault":D. But I'm not one to back out of something, so I'll take my responsibility in putting it all into action, but only if it gains the interest of 20 candidates.

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Originally Posted by Chris L

I do agree that rather than contest (even tough competition to me is fun) maybe this be reorganized as a confidential honing assessment. Given the number of newer, burgeoning, non-expert honers among us (myself included), I would really be shocked if more people don't want to take advantage of a private assessment.

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That's fine with me. In fact, I'm not a very competitive person. The idea was to offer people a fun opportunity for probing where they are with their honing. If you guys really think the idea of entering a contest is working rather against, than in favor of, that concept, by all means, let's loose the competition factor. I still think it would be great fun, though.:shrug:
I already managed to throw in a very nice coticule into the price pot, but we could also assign it to a random participant.

Maybe Bruno should change the poll (or close this one and start a new thread) into:

1. I want to enter a contest.
2. Don't want to enter a contest, but would enter a razor assessment survey.
3. I would not enter contest not survey, but approve of the idea.
4. I disapprove to the idea of a contest.

Bart.

Random coticule prize winner. That sounds even better and would hopefully entice more people to enter.

Chris L

For your information:

Glen (gssixgun) volunteered to be a member of the jury. I think with this man's experience and knowledge, we can't go wrong. Whatever way this plan is heading.

Bart.

BTW Glen is also adding to the prize pot, :D one shave ready vintage razor of a brand to be determined soon (I gotta look to see what I have that can be restored quickly) but it will be a nice one!!!!!

I think this is a good idea, even if it is only to let each person know where they are at in their own honing ablities.... Let's have some fun here

Way to go SRP !!!!

I added a new poll
http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...st-survey.html

You can make multiple selections. That is much easier than having to make 1 option for all possible combinations.

It sounds like fun, I just hope there are enough judges, IMO there will be a lot of contestants!

After thinking about it for a while, I find myself in the disapproval camp and have voted as such. There are too many variables, too many subtleties that affect the outcome without having any clear relevance.

To put it another way, would a contest of something like "The best wine maker" really mean anything? There are all sorts of wines, just as there are all sorts of razors, hones, strops, pastes and faces.... each will have their own personality and suitability and may appeal to a given set of circumstances. There is no way of fairly determining a winner as far as I can see.

A similar sharpening contest has been held by one of the knife groups ( I think) and was quite good, it revolved around a single box of disposable cutting blades. Each contestant that entered would be sent in the mail (I don't recall the exact number but lets for arguments sake say 2 blades) 2 blades from this one lot of blades so that everyone had the same steel, same everything as everyone else. Then there were the tests, it was not subjective but rather clear and precise... There were several media that were to be cut, ranging from paper down to (I believe) toilet tissue (again from the same ream/roll), some sort of cutting pressure test using string/cord with the cutting pressure accurately measured with all the results posted. A clear winner was chosen based on the objective measuring of the cutting efficiency.

When it comes to razors, the ultimate test is the shave test and I think we all agree on that. However, what is absolutely perfect for my face/beard/prep in all likelihood won't be for your and the reverse is true as well. The sharpest edges will be harsh shaving for many.... the more smoother edges will tug too much for others...... I just don't see how we could come to a fair result in the end. Then there is the matter of judging the edge, to be fair, the razor should either be judged by a single person or the blade would have to be returned to the honer for re-honing after each test as whomever used it *may* have damaged the edge with their stropping technique or other handling. So no.... I just don't see how we can do this sort of thing accurately and fairly, and I'd hate to have someone unfairly judged poorer than someone else based on personal and subjective tests/preferences. On the other hand, if we adopt something like what I described above where only pure sharpness is measured... does such a test have any relevancy to a real straight razor shave. If it did, why are there so many different brands of safety razor blades being sold, each with their champions, having chosen one of many brands as "The Best" for them.

I may be alone in my thoughts, but I felt I should present them to you all for your consideration.


Regards

Christian

A couple things:
First, I was of course kidding about crying for a week. I was actually planning my revenge for a week.:medvl:
Second, I honestly believe that my honing is better than it was at the time I sold the razor to Chris. However, I also believe that I have not yet reached any sort of honing pinnacle, if such a thing exists, as I have yet to ever have a hair fall silently during the HHT--mine always pop. I am fully aware that I have room for improvement in honing. Most of us do.

There should be so many people signing up for this that it should need a lottery to pick contestants.

In the new poll I voted "I approve of a contest" or whatever. I wouldn't plan on entering myself. It's a cool/fun idea but I'm just not that into it. I know I can hone very well and have so much other stuff I'm working on that a honing contest really just doesn't interest me at all.

I don't think it's worth doing unless you have a top three or whatever. Obviously keep the other contestant's outcomes private. Also, why try to appease those who "disapprove" anyway? Was it their idea to start a contest and are they the ones taking all of the risk/initiative? A contest is a contest. Even honest evaluation is bound to hurt some egos.

Christian,

rest assure, you are not alone with criticizing this contest/survey idea.
I'm not one to take such things personal, and your thoughts, as well as those of mr. Bigspendur, who also shared his disapproval, are approached with honest consideration.

However, I think we fundamentally disagree on the nature of the concept "shaveability". I, for one, think that "shaveability" is a fairly objective notion. I draw such conclusion, based upon razors I have swapped and shared with others, for comparison and assessment. I also base my ideas on a long chat with a retired barber that shaved 1000's of beards between 1940 and the mid 1960's. For that purpose the clients personal straight razors were kept and maintained at the barbershop, all with the same means and with the same concept about a blade being up to par or not.
In my opinion, an superior straight razor's edge shaves close. Sharpness of a blade is, again in my opinion, directly correlated to the closeness of the shave, and I can generally form myself an idea of sharpness if I pay attention to how close the first pass WTG cuts the whiskers. Going ATG tells me more, because a good edge shaves completely smooth, while a lesses edge leaves stubble, no matter what. I think that relation between sharpness and closeness is the same on all faces, and I also think the variance is much lesser than what is often suggested.
As a second criterion, a superior straight razor's edge also lasts a fair number of shaves. The way we plan to assess the razors with multiple shaves by 4 jury members, will put some weight on that as well.
Hence, while you seem convinced that the shaving performance of an edge (remember that everybody will be using the same type and brand of razor) is a very subjective notion, I am convinced of almost the opposite.

I also think that we will find experienced jury members, so that stropping malpractice is not an issue. It's a typical newbie occurrence, and I don't think experienced shavers dull their blades on a strop, ever.

I would like to emphasize, once again, the idea is hone a razor and find out how 4 experienced shavers rate its performance. For kicks, the best blade wins a price. It's not about the best honer, but about the blade that receives the best appraisal during a blind assessment.

The ones that try to organize this thing have no choice but to take this seriously, for the sake of being as objective as reasonably possible, and because a participation fee needs to be involved, to pay for the razor and the postage costs. (current price for the DA's is $9.50)
But those who think about participating should really not take things too seriously. Just a game, a nice prize pot, and a way to have a razor assessed by some fine gentlemen. Surely not something to have your ego bruised about.

Bart.

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In my opinion, an superior straight razor's edge shaves close. Sharpness of a blade is, again in my opinion, directly correlated to the closeness of the shave, and I can generally form myself an idea of sharpness if I pay attention to how close the first pass WTG cuts the whiskers. Going ATG tells me more, because a good edge shaves completely smooth, while a lesses edge leaves stubble, no matter what. I think that relation between sharpness and closeness is the same on all faces, and I also think the variance is much lesser than what is often suggested.

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Firstly, I placed my post in the the actual poll thread to explain my rather extreme view, not to further any discussion but I'm fine with the mods having moved it here.

As for your view on sharpness/smoothness and the way you evaluate it proves the point I was trying to make. Sharper edges do not a smoother or closer shave make...for everyone. If that were true then the only DE blade sold would be the Feather DE blades as they are generally considered one of the sharpest, if not THE sharpest DE blade normally available. There is a group of shavers who find this to be true, but there are many many more shavers who find that slightly LESS sharp DE blades produce a better, closer shave for them and I am one of them. Ditto for the Feather AC blades, the Pro blades are without question sharper than the Pro Super blades but my results with the Pro Supers are superior to that of the Pro blades. This is not a "I am right, you are wrong" issue, just that my view is that such a contest, as proposed, is a pointless exercise the way it is evaluated. If you gents want to have at it, by all means.... fill yer boots! :D I was just pointing out that whatever results become of it are meaningless for anything other than, shall we say, entertainment value, and in no way should be used to determine the suitability of one honer over the next, unless the person deciding was the first blind tester to test the contest razors, and those results would only be for his/her personal use.

Your faith in your fellow shavers unwavering skill with a strop is larger than mine.... a bad stroke on the strop can happen to anyone at any time, well it does on occasion to me and I'm not afraid to admit it! :w

Regards

Christian

How about entry fees to just cover costs. winner gets their name on the perpetual trophy and gets to hold it for a year. Or no physical trophy at all and instead a line under their avatar "2009 Honing Champion"?

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Originally Posted by Quick

How about entry fees to just cover costs. winner gets their name on the perpetual trophy and gets to hold it for a year. Or no physical trophy at all and instead a line under their avatar "2009 Honing Champion"?

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Smashing idea!

The reason I wasn't crazy about the idea centers on the following concepts. What is the ultimate goal of the contest. I realize its fun and games and all that however in the end what will the moral of the story be. Will we be able to say Mr A is a great honer and Mr B is a not so great a honer? Will Mr A have a swelled head because he did such a great job and Mr C hangs his head in shame. I think not since we don't know what equipment each guy has at his disposal, the time spend honing and the state of each razor and if your going to be using different brands the difference in quality twixt the two razors.

Its kind of like if I only have a blue belgian and someone else has every stone in existence and my razor doesn't quite measure up to the other but comes pretty close what could you conclude? I need more practice or maybe its a miracle I did what I could with what I have as opposed to the other guy who had it much easier.

However, you all have my best wishes on this and I hope you have a great time.

Okay, I'm still new to it all so put down I support it but wouldn't feel free judging since I've only shaved with two razors thus far.

I do think it would be a very difficult test to do and would take in my estimation a couple of months depending on number of contestants and number of testers. best idea I've got on it is this

number of 7 day sets equal to number of testers to be used. (and of course if more than 7 participants in honing more 7 day sets).

each honemeister hones one day of each set. for this argument lets say 7 hone guys and 4 testers. each honemeister would end up honing 4 razors out of a matched set, i.e. honemesiter 1 hones mondays. afterwards the person "in charge" get all razors together and sends out all 4 7 day sets, each to a different tester (one with lots of experience and whos shaved with many razors of course).

after a week results are sent back to "in charge" guy. the tester's would each know at the end of the week which shave they thought was best.

I don't think that having them hone with the same equipment is the important thing, after all the specific tools you use goes to your style/technique. I think the control element is the steel, blade shape, size etc. adn then of course the person shaving and their hair growth etc. (that's why I'd stipulate something like first shave must happen 24 hours after their last straight razor shave and must have 24 hours between each days shave) something like that.

oh, and stipulate that the razors be stropped on the same strop same number of strokes.

Red

I am willing to enter the contest, but I would suggest that the losers (not top 3) would get some feedback on why their razors didnt' win, what didn't feel right, and what needs work. That way not only do I have fun, but I learn something, too!

Won't be as much fun if I enter and all I get back is, "nope, you didn't win" because that really doesn't help me improve, either.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The reason I wasn't crazy about the idea centers on the following concepts. What is the ultimate goal of the contest.

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The title! A sense of accomplishment, the celebration party, bragging rights on SRP, the afterglow of the win, becomming a hero in the eyes of your family and friends, ...

I can't think of any human competition where there isn't some luck factor. Conditions, equipment, whatever. It's just that the more skilled have a better probability of winning. Many competitions are also decided by a subjective measure. Films, dog shows, art in general. Many enjoy competing with no chance of winning. I'm sure there are skilled honers who are lurkers here so there's the chance of a dark horse win.

The only downside/ugliness I can think of would be cheating and I can't think of any incentive for doing so or any probability of that occuring with this group (not sure how one could cheat anyway).

I was looking at this as more of a combined and organized assessment of your personal honing skills, than a clear cut winner -vs- loser contest....
As I stated before this sort of thing has been going on behind the scenes for as long as I have been on here.... The only difference here is that said aspiring "honemiester" (a term that gets used way to easily) gets more than just one opinion on their skills, and their skills are compared to others that are closer to their level of skill, instead of just against one person's skills (normally a very experienced "honemiester") this I think is a great idea...
Also keep in mind that there will probably be NO clear cut winner, since razors can only get so sharp, and so smooth, and I am pretty sure that a majority of the people entering razors, will be able to achieve this level....
The difference here, to make what I was saying very clear...
Member X thinks that he is getting pretty good, so he asks an experienced Honemiester to access his edges and sends the razor to him....
That Honemiester has only one edge really to compare this razor too, ie: his own...
In this "contest" Member X's razor will be compared to say 19 other razors all honed by people that are way more evenly matched when it comes to experience level, and the "honemiester" is comparing all 20 razors as a group, and not just against his own abilities....

Did all this rambling make any sense whatsoever????

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

That Honemiester has only one edge really to compare this razor too, ie: his own...
In this "contest" Member X's razor will be compared to say 19 other razors all honed by people that are way more evenly matched when it comes to experience level, and the "honemiester" is comparing all 20 razors as a group, and not just against his own abilities....

Did all this rambling make any sense whatsoever????

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Well, yes, there's that too. :)

If people are worried about the agony of defeat aspect you could have a check box for each contestent to specify if they want their name/screen name to be kept private. Then in the above context you could get back your placing in the competition and no one would know that you even entered.

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Originally Posted by jockeys

I am willing to enter the contest, but I would suggest that the losers (not top 3) would get some feedback on why their razors didnt' win, what didn't feel right, and what needs work. .

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That indeed was the idea. Every participant receives a detailed performance sheet. You'll be able to see how each particular jury member evaluated your blade and you'll be able to see where you're edge is situated in the pack. Only the top 3 will be made public, but all other people that entered the contest will know how their razor performed in the hands of the jury.

IF the game goes ahead (we're still 10 participants short), the jury still needs to be formed (all I know right now is gssixgun is in it) and then they need to agree on a unified method for assessing the razors. For the sake of getting some conversation going I'd like to share my method for the assessment of razors, that I use for my double blinded experiments. A lot of thought went into it, and I think it's a good starting point for a discussion:

For razor assessment, I make use of a standardized performance sheet. (those who read my threads have already seen it, but I've attached an example).
The sheet speaks for itself: the razor is rated at four different performance levels. I'm sure many of you will object against the included HHT-test. It's probably best to leave that one out for the contest.
When testing razors, I change as few variables as possible. This means: always washing face with the same soap prior to an assessment shave. Same lather. Same brush. Same strop. Same amount of laps for each razor. Same post-shave routine.
I always test two razors at once, one for the left side of my face and one for the right side. I do only two passes, one WTG and one ATG. No touch ups, hence the "shaving closeness" score reflects the result of the same shaving routine.

Looking forward to all suggestions for improving this routine,

Bart.

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Originally Posted by Bart

(we're still 10 participants short)

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Is it underway already? What's the fee?

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Is it underway already? What's the fee?

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I was only referring to the status of the new poll.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...st-survey.html

As soon as it hits 20, we 'll start accepting subscriptions. About the fee, I'm not sure yet.
A Double Arrow costs about $10 a piece + shipment for the whole pack to my place.
I'm currently working out a way to replace the flimsy plastic scales with something simple, yet cool, in trespa. It'll be my treat to the guys joining the game.
Then everyone needs to receive his "competition razor" in the mail, which will probably add another $10.
After the participants hone the razor, they need to send it back to the jury headquarters, which is not included in the fee.
We need to send them back afterwards, so let's add another $10.
The jury needs to swap their group of razors three times, which will also add a little something (Glen and I agreed that the jury should be CONUS, to keep those costs down).
For the price pot we're gonna rely on the generosity of a few sponsors.

I estimate the entrance fee will be approximately $35, competition razor included.
This is only a quick estimate.

Bart.

the reason i would enter the contest would be to see what someone else that is good at honing thought of a razor that i honed, he could point out things i could be doing wrong to me so i think it would be valuable critique of my skills, i really dont care about winning or losing just the valued opinion of someone that knows way more than i do about honing, a sort of learning tool instead of a contest to me, but i wouldnt turn down a livi razor as a prize either lol

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Originally Posted by jwoods

the reason i would enter the contest would be to see what someone else that is good at honing thought of a razor that i honed, he could point out things i could be doing wrong to me so i think it would be valuable critique of my skills, i really dont care about winning or losing just the valued opinion of someone that knows way more than i do about honing, a sort of learning tool instead of a contest to me, but i wouldnt turn down a livi razor as a prize either lol

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Yup, that's exactly why I'm planning on entering. :) LoL, I have yet to even produce a truly shave worthy blade!

I did think about this post and finally decided to let it go.This is my opinion and i know some of you won't like and may be hate me.
This is what i think.
at first idea to have this honing competition is excellent but there is couple things needs to be fix before we can say it is fair competition.
i am 1 of the person who said yes and after thinking i decided not to participate in it.
1 st i think i will be the winner.
2 nd this honing will be fair competition if all people who is in it would have
1 st same blade
2 nd equal amount of time
3 rd same type hones include everything which people will use to make razor ready(strop,chro2,hones etc.
Now some of the people have the best hone belgian others has escher another one God knows.
how it will be fair game if i use my CHARNLEY FOREST stone and put final edge to blade?that wouldn't me my skill i think.
I would be glad to be in this competition but because of the above reason's i am Sorry guys.
In case if any of you want to challenge me i am ready just to show how much differences will make having right tools.This is my 2 cent
or if you want to challenge each other just do it buy using 2 different hones escher -thuringiaan,or belgian and see how much it will be different from 1 to another,of i am not including chromiumo2 etc.
good luck

hi bud gl,

Isn't the point of the competition to find the absolute best? If so, what tools that are used for the job wouldn't matter. Results are results, right? Maybe there could be another award for best edge relative to the tools used? One test for the edge, one test for the person honing? Or maybe just include the data for the methods/tools of each entry with the results. That might give everybody more insight into the competition.

I agree with that. A large part of getting the best edge is going to include "tricks of the trade" and personal "secrets". Things like variations on pyramids, your sooper secret pasted newspaper, etc. Not restricted to just a test of physical ability. I think if you limited the tools you would have the reverse problem. Surely people have refined their technique and routine to the tools they have at hand.

I'm sure this would be a recurring phenomenon as skills improve over time, especially with input from a panel of judges who know what they're talking about. How often would it take place?

[QUOTE=crazycliff200843;282810]

Isn't the point of the competition to find the absolute best? If so, what tools that are used for the job wouldn't matter. Results are results, right?

sorry it does matter.
just try this.
take 2 same blades and only use 1 st one belgian hone and on second one use norton 4/8k
end check the result you will see it does matter.
Same person does exact skiils and spend same time but results are different ??

That's why you make it a two part competition. On one hand you have the best edge. On the other hand, you judge how well an edge is based on the equipment used.

The whole point is that allowing variables makes it fun, and allows people to use what they know best.

Another major issue (imo) is that the judges can only judge the edge and not the technique used.
The judges don't care if you can only hone 1 razor per month under a full moon after a week of fasting and meditation, using only a concrete brick. If that razor would have the best edge, you'd win.

The more someone tries to make it 'fair', the less fun it would be imo.

I think that this idea is of particular use to those of us who are medium good at honing (i.e. those of us who can reliably get our razors sharp for ourselves, but have yet to have a razor evaluated by a peer as an excellent edge). The expert honemeisters don't really need the feedback that much (since their customers probably do that), and the newbie honers are just trying to get a shavable edge without dwindling the razor down to a toothpick with so much honing.

I know that I'm entering this (either as a contest or as an evaluation exercise) simply to get the feedback...I really couldn't care less where I place or if I won something - for me, the information I'll get is worth the price of admission...anything esle I get from this is strickly bonus.

Thanks for putting this together, Bart! Much appreciate!

Mark

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

sorry it does matter.
just try this.
take 2 same blades and only use 1 st one belgian hone and on second one use norton 4/8k
end check the result you will see it does matter.
Same person does exact skiils and spend same time but results are different ??

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If you're insinuating that the Norton edge would not be quite as good as the coticule edge, then with that logic, wouldn't the honer that used the Norton stone potentially get feedback from the judges that his edge was shavable, honed well, but that it needed "something"? A slightly higher grit polishing stone perhaps? Wouldn't that person find benefit in such feedback?

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Originally Posted by Milton Man

I know that I'm entering this (either as a contest or as an evaluation exercise) simply to get the feedback...I really couldn't care less where I place or if I won something - for me, the information I'll get is worth the price of admission...anything esle I get from this is strickly bonus.

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My sentiments EXACTLY, Mark. I agree with you 100%.

Chris L

Also if you allow different people to use different materials, it could give you very interesting results.
for example, the organizer could publish a list of all the results, with the method / materials used to hone the razor, but without the names of the honers.

This would give use an idea of how different stones compare to each other.
I know that this is hardly a true scientific test, but it could be one of the nice outcomes of this contest, and to be honest, this would come the closest to a double blind comparative study that I have seen so far.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Also if you allow different people to use different materials, it could give you very interesting results.
for example, the organizer could publish a list of all the results, with the method / materials used to hone the razor, but without the names of the honers.

This would give use an idea of how different stones compare to each other.
I know that this is hardly a true scientific test, but it could be one of the nice outcomes of this contest, and to be honest, this would come the closest to a double blind comparative study that I have seen so far.

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I think that would be a lengthy and informative discussion.

I would enter such a contest. I do think that the entries should be double-blind by number before they get to the judges so there is no possibility of bias.

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Originally Posted by Howard

I would enter such a contest. I do think that the entries should be double-blind by number before they get to the judges so there is no possibility of bias.

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That is a good idea. Going by Bart's method of using the same prep setup, soap, brush, lather, etcetera..... and what hi_bud_gl said the real deal would be for all the participants to have the same double arrow razors and 1 Norton 4/8 hone and that is it.

A synthetic hone that most are familiar with would exclude the variations in natural stones and no one would have the advantage of having say a complete series of Shaptons up to 30K.

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Originally Posted by JimmyH-AD

That is a good idea. Going by Bart's method of using the same prep setup, soap, brush, lather, etcetera..... and what hi_bud_gl said the real deal would be for all the participants to have the same double arrow razors and 1 Norton 4/8 hone and that is it.

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The test would be double blind. Only the administraotr would know which razor was hones by whom.
Everybody gets the same razor.
But how you hone it would be up to you. The objective is not to compare people's skill with a given stone, but how sharp / smooth they can make a razor.

And as I explained in the other thread, this way the admin could compose a list of all razors, their score and the honing method, which would be interesting to compare honing methods.

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Originally Posted by Chris L

If you're insinuating that the Norton edge would not be quite as good as the coticule edge, then with that logic, wouldn't the honer that used the Norton stone potentially get feedback from the judges that his edge was shavable, honed well, but that it needed "something"? A slightly higher grit polishing stone perhaps? Wouldn't that person find benefit in such feedback?



My sentiments EXACTLY, Mark. I agree with you 100%.

Chris L

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Chris L My understanding is this -name of this topic"What about a honing contest?"
Now if name was ""learning contest i would be agree with you 100%
What you saying above i think most honers can find without spending 35 to enter this contest.just read posts in the form.
i know you are not newbee and that is hurts.:gth