The honing mysteries just never end...

So I've gotten to the point in life where I can maintain most any razor, from a paper-thin hollow to a heavy wedge, using only the Chinese 12K, even with my steel-eating beard. Eventually the razor settles into a nice equilibrium where I touch it up every 3rd shave. The thing is, although the razor stays very sharp, it never again becomes as sharp as it was after the initial bevel-setting. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon? Anyone have a clue why it happens?!

I discovered this by accident when I accidentally rolled the edge of my full-hollow W&B. I had to go back to 30X 1K-sandpaper, 50X cushioned strop hone, 50X Swaty, 50X Chinese 12K. Then I shaved, and it was like "Madre de Dios this thing is SHARP!" Sharper than it had been before.

Incidentally, how I rolled the edge is another mystery. I honestly have no idea. I just woke up one day & my razor was a butter knife. I had shaved my head with it, which is hard on a blade, but I think I remember getting one or 2 good face-shaves from it after the head-shave. Maybe I got too sloppy & heavy-handed with the canvas. canvas does seem to eat the edge right off if you press too hard, or leave the strop a little slack. Or maybe aliens teleported into my bedroom at night & opened all their mail with my razor. I just don't know.

ONly my opinion check the edge after you sharpen them.
i think you are overhoning .just my thought.
good luck.

The edge really shouldn't be deteriorating that fast, wierd.

Overhoning is a possibility, but most natural stones are pretty good about not forming wire edges, so that's not definitive in and of itself.

How are you defining "sharp"? When I finish a honing progression on a nakayama, the edge is definitely sharper than it was coming off of a lower grit stone, but doesn't feel like it because of the added smoothness of the edge. You could be noticing that the edge has become less harsh (by way of the additional refining of an edge that may not have been at its maximum potential) and maybe relating that to a decrease in sharpness, though it's hard to say.

:shrug:

I usually do stuff like that on the strop. Try as I might I think I could spend a decade practicing and still not be sure I've got stropping down.

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

ONly my opinion check the edge after you sharpen them.
i think you are overhoning .just my thought.
good luck.

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and

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

The edge really shouldn't be deteriorating that fast, wierd.
Overhoning is a possibility, but most natural stones are pretty good about not forming wire edges, so that's not definitive in and of itself.

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My beard eats steel. I get 4 shaves max out of an edge. Glen honed one up for me & it lasted twice as long: 8 shaves. With 2 days growth my cheek feels like 80 grit sandpaper. My father used to shave with a str8 years ago & he had the same problem. So apparently it runs in the family.

I try to avoid overhoning by finishing my sessions with 3 back strokes, then 5 fwd strokes to deburr (credit: Puffah). Prob. not necessary w/the matural stone but I do it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

How are you defining "sharp"?

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by shaving with it. With a blade that I've been maintaining for a while, if I've only got 1 day growth, I can get almost, but not quite BBS ATG. With a newly bevel-set & polished edge, I can get perfect BBS ATG, even with only 1 day growth.

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

When I finish a honing progression on a nakayama, the edge is definitely sharper than it was coming off of a lower grit stone, but doesn't feel like it because of the added smoothness of the edge. You could be noticing that the edge has become less harsh (by way of the additional refining of an edge that may not have been at its maximum potential) and maybe relating that to a decrease in sharpness, though it's hard to say.

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That is certainly true. I have a hard time assessing any edge finer than 8K with my thumb pad. Instead, I nick arm hairs off. At 8K the hairs pop in half. At 12K they fall in half with little or no sensation of popping.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I usually do stuff like that on the strop. Try as I might I think I could spend a decade practicing and still not be sure I've got stropping down.

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that could certainly be how I rolled the edge. All it takes is one bad stroke on a strop that's not quite taut. This whole process is just so damn fiddly!

In any case, even if I were willing to grind my razors down to stumps, doing the whole hone progression every 3 shaves is not an option due to the time it takes. So I'll have to figure out how to do what I can with the 12K.

Slurry with the Chinese 12k really makes it cut faster. IMO, more than twice as fast. With slurry, and depending on how hard the steel is, I can usually get the scratch marks from a DMT 8EE out with 50 to 75 laps. Without slurry, it's waaaaay over 100.

My guess is you've got weak edges. I see two possibilities. One is edge geometry. If you're using too much pressure at the lower grits, you may be getting an edge that's very sharp, but doesn't have enough thickness of steel behind the edge to back it up.

The other possibility is that you haven't removed enough of the swiss-cheese-esque oxidized steel before setting your bevel on a vintage razor. This seems to me the most likely situation. In my experience, it is very common to get a good enough edge on such a razor, but the steel begins to crumble a little. Unlike the coticule (or even an escher) the chinese is a polishing hone and a polishing hone only, so when you go back to refresh you're just polishing crumbling steel. That's why when you go back to reset the bevel you get good shaves again for a while. Til the crumbling begins.

Do you use a microscope? With a microscope you can sometimes see tiny little squiggles on the bevel that tell you you've got oxidization. It may be in and around the bevel but not right at the edge; nevertheless that's weak steel and the edge won't last.

I'm not sure I would go to 1k with a rolled edge. In my opinion that is a bit low.

You may have to do many more laps on the finer hones.

After the 1K the "teeth" on the edge left by the hone’s striations are large, long and weak. You will only be polishing those “teeth” if you do a few laps on the high grit hones.
When you shave the “teeth” will cut but wont last long because they easily "bend or break off".

If you do more laps on the finer grit hones you will make finer/smaller teeth that will be stronger and the edge will last longer.

I normally don't count laps but if I were to guess, I would say twice as many laps on the finer hones than on the lower grit hones.

Also, depending on who you ask, shaving your head may count as 2 shaves.

Hope this helps