Confused about soaking hones in water.....

OK, so I'm not an expert on hones but I play one on the shaving forums....:rofl2:

Joke aside, I've had this question I've been trying to answer to myself regarding the practice of soaking a hone like the Norton 4K. The manufacturer states that the hone needs to be soaked for about 10 minutes in water before use... I am sitting here wondering WHY?!?!?! I cannot for the life of me, after having used this hone multiple times think of any reason why it has to be done. I've soaked the hone for 30 minutes or 12 hrs and it's all the same, the hone is porous and the water on the surface of the hone wicks into the 4k hone in a matter of seconds leaving the top surface without a coating of water. Even if the water remained on the surface I don't see how it can prevent any damage to the hone?!?!? I'll be up front here and state that I have used my Norton 4k/8k both wet and dry and have noticed no problems with using it dry at all. I do admit that the 8k side is dense enough to not allow the water to wick away all that fast and having the water on the surface probably floats some of the swarf away but on that 4K I just don't see it happening. And even when I've used the 4K dry until it's black with swarf, there does not seem to be an issue using a DMT D8C to lap it clean and flat again, only this time I add water to rinse away the grit that is being removed by the diamond plate.

On oil stones I feel it's a different matter, those things (Arkansas hones) are solid, not porous hones that need a lube to float away the swarf before it becomes embedded in the surface. They also don't get lapped as frequently as water hones ( which cleans the hone) and that again would indicate that one should lube with something to keep it cutting properly.

So on a waterstone like the Norton 4K, what possible damage could you do to the interior of the hone by honing on it without soaking it in water first? I can't think of a single thing.......

Regards

Christian

I don't know the answer to that and I do agree that the 4K soaks up the water on the surface like a sponge no matter how long it has been soaked. As an aside, I was pleased that with the single grit Nortons there is no need to soak the 8K according to Norton's instructions.

i used to simply leave both of my Nortons in a bucket of water... i have yet to find a stone that cuts as good dry as it does with water or lather on it.

of course i gave away my Nortons after i decided that i really liked the shaptons... they just need a spritz of water :D

The Norton 4K is porous, it's like a sponge.... you can pour as much water as you like on it and it will never pool on top of the hone, thus my inquiry about what exactly is the purpose then. My Shaptons and natural hones are a different story of course, those hones behave differently when you put water on top. As for lubricating the 4k Norton... I suppose, but I don't detect any difference over using it dry, and yet Norton claims you need to *soak* it in water before use?!?!

Christian

The only rule I have found to be true when it comes to this great hobby of ours, is this, "There are no rules" heck Christian if it is working for you, go with it, and then let all the rest of us bucket heads know about it.....

There is another aspect to the water though I just thought of after hitting the submit tab, the water does give you a visual indicator of the stroke that you are doing also....

The purpose of soaking stones such as the thirsty man made stones is so that the stone will soak up enough water that a little will remain on the surface as you are honing to wash away the swarf so that you don't clog the surface and hamper the stones cutting ability! The stone will still suck up the water after a good soaking but it should be at a much slower rate! Just keep adding a little water to the surface as you hone! If you do prefer to hone with a dry hone, just scrub it under running water with a green scrubby after each use or as necessary!

I have no idea. Does the addition of water change the surface of the stone/cause the surface to realign or move around any? If that's the case, soaking it may give the surface time to move around and then quit moving. I think somebody suggested something along those lines at one point in another thread. I think it was lt. arclight talking about shaptons?

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Originally Posted by JMS

The purpose of soaking stones such as the thirsty man made stones is so that the stone will soak up enough water that a little will remain on the surface as you are honing to wash away the swarf so that you don't clog the surface and hamper the stones cutting ability! The stone will still suck up the water after a good soaking but it should be at a much slower rate! Just keep adding a little water to the surface as you hone! If you do prefer to hone with a dry hone, just scrub it under running water with a green scrubby after each use or as necessary!

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What he said. This is exactly my experience.
If you only soak it for 10 seconds, you will have to add more water and more frequently while honing.

If you plonk a bone dry 1000 grit norton in a bucket of water, you can actually hear a high pitched noise when it starts sucking up water. And you can see air bubbles escape from the stone for several minutes.
The 4K is the same, only slower so without the noise and the big bubbles. but the same principle applies.

So has anyone tried to hone submerged?

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Originally Posted by paulallen

So has anyone tried to hone submerged?

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You mean just the stone and razor right? :rofl2:

I'd imagine tactile feedback and position would be very different and hard to manage... You'd have to have your hands and forearms pointing down into the water and then deal with the resistance of the water on the same as you make a stroke. Probably not good for some scales either.

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Originally Posted by paulallen

So has anyone tried to hone submerged?

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Actually, I have before:

I had an Black Arkansas that was ****ing me off, and I tried every other way of honing with it...dry, oil, lather, slurry, naptha, water+soap, soap only, spritzed with water, running water et al.

I took the damn thing, dunked it in the sink, and tried honing a razor like that. The stone still sucks. Also, honing under water is really hard.

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Originally Posted by paulallen

So has anyone tried to hone submerged?

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That would also get your whole razor wet, something that I avoid. I try to never get my tangs wet. As others said, feedback would probably be weird, and I imagine you would get odd pressures between the blade and the stone that would try to push the blade up. It would probably also be difficult to determine how much pressure you were using.

If a sponge is fully saturated, it won't soak up more water, thus the term saturated. I leave my 4k hones partially submerged either in a modified pond or in half of the plastic case that the Norton lapping stone came in. By keeping it partially submerged, it is held in a much more saturated state and it is much slower to suck the water down into the hone.

Christian - I have a very low grit King stone - like a green brick - that sucks up water like you describe. I'm lucky to get 5 laps on it before it is bone dry on the top no matter how long it has been soaked.

I found an old plastic carton that was a snug fit for it and patially fill it with water and hone with the stone in it. The water I put onto the top of the stone still runs through it very fast, though, and soon the container fills up. It helps but it can get messy...!

My wife isn't very impressed by all this (stones soaking in sinks, honing on the kitchen table, etc). Judging by the looks I get, I think she pities me.

[QUOTE=Neil Miller;290920]Christian - I have a very low grit King stone - like a green brick - that sucks up water like you describe. I'm lucky to get 5 laps on it before it is bone dry on the top no matter how long it has been soaked.

I found an old plastic carton that was a snug fit for it and patially fill it with water and hone with the stone in it. The water I put onto the top of the stone still runs through it very fast, though, and soon the container fills up. It helps but it can get messy...!

My wife isn't very impressed by all this (stones soaking in sinks, honing on the kitchen table, etc). Judging by the looks I get, I think she pities me.[/QUOTE]

My wife really loves it when I flatten my hones and get white, yellow, and gray sludgy water all over the kitchen counter. :w

:HJ

Jordan

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Originally Posted by jnich67

My wife really loves it when I flatten my hones and get white, yellow, and gray sludgy water all over the kitchen counter. :w

:HJ

Jordan

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I have been told several times that I am "Not allowed near the kitchen sink" anymore...:shrug:

I just slink away and do it when she's not looking:nono:.

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I get to make all the mess I want because I'm the one that cleans the kitchen. I actually find the slurry, actually works really well for cleaning the stainless bench.

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I have made mention that on several occasions, my wife just looks at me like I'm a fool though. :shrug: