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Interested if you guys find that after you hone a razor and it sits for a while, say 3 or 6 or 9 months, that the edge is not quite as good as when you honed it??? I have some razors that seem like I can pick them up a year later and it is still there and yet others that need a refresh to get them back. Climate? Just nature of the metal? I usually keep a coat of camellia oil on them when they sit.
Thanks,
Lynn
I have observed exactly the same phenomenon. I use mineral oil, even between shaves, but only on the edge. Not the pivot area.
That's a good question Lynn. Unfortunately I do not have any (honed) razors that sit longer than say a month unused. I am going to put one aside from today to check it out.
I bet, though, that your are right: a combination of climate, storage method, and steel type would impact on this. I'd hypothesise that my Friodur would pull up better than a carbon steel, but I aint doing that experiment as there's no way I am removing the Friodur from my rotation for more than a week! :D
I'd also hazard a guess that the fineness of the edge may play a role in this too. I know it might be splitting hairs, but an edge finished on a super fine Asagi, say, may not hold up as well as one off an Escher. But that's just a guess, founded on my (very dubious) knowledge of materials science.
James.
I myself have not noticed that, I have a few that have sat over 1 year in the Shumate and DD collection and they shaved just fine....
In fact that KA-BAR I shaved with the other day on SOTD sat at least 6 months... I am trying to think of any that I have experienced that from, and they are not coming to mind.... Now I did notice a difference with one that I had honed before I got my 16k Shapton and yes there was a slight difference in the feel there.... Just not quite as smooth as I had remembered that one :p
I've had a J. Rodgers wedge sitting idle for 9 months, and it shave great when it went out of rotation, it just recently got back into the rotation, the shave was okish, and it improved with a trip back to the UF, but it's quite possible it's the improvement in honing skills that causes the "detoriation" on this one.
I've seen the same thing with the knives and planes in my shop, and have attributed it to the steel itself, mainly due to lack of any other reason being that my sharpening technique is the same for all knives as a group and all planes as a group. I've some plane blades that have remained extremely sharp with years of use, and one that I've had to sharpen twice in less than 18 months with no more use than any other plane.
This thread here talks about corrosion being one cause of edge deterioration. That's why I always hit mine a dozen or so licks on the horse after I shave and before I lubricate it. I can't say I have been at it long enough to judge how mine behave after they have been sitting awhile but I will try and notice in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
Lynn, et al,
I wish I were a better student of "post hoc ergo propter hoc," alas I am not. Isolated case file report follows: I have let languish a very nice big, wedgly Boker I got a while back from Blaireau's predecessor and recently brought it back into the fold of the shaving rotation. During its just sitting there, it was parked on a shelf in my bathroom with all the other rotators - none of them having any special treatment other than a careful drying after use and before parking. I stropped the Boker on about 50 trips on linen, 50 flip/flops or so on the flesh side of a strop, and about 50 laps on the grain side of a shell strop. The resulting shave was smooth, close, and comfortable. There is nothing remarkable about this other than I thought that recent shave was better than the one I got before the park. ????
If I put a preservative on the blade I use gun oil - the stuff which claims to be also a rust preventive. My reasoning behind this is that the stuff is reputedly designed to prevent rust. Oils such as camellia are vegetable derivatives and may contain trace amounts of water, this is just a may now, and may polymerize if not regularly refreshed - as the Samurai would do with their swords. The polymerization, if it occurs, will make it difficult to remove the hardened oil. Thus, I choose not to use that product.
I did read the 1930-ish article on razor blade rusting and treasured the disclosures of the 3000x photomicrographs. And vowed never to buy another carbon steel DE blade.:jedi:
--another northman who floats against the stream--
:nj
I find no problems with Camellia oil but I think the trick is to re-apply regularly.
It does oxidise fairly quickly making it not the ideal long term storage solution.
They don't make it anymore and I am glad I have a stash of it. R.I.G. (rust inhibiting grease) is great for anything steel. Guns, knives, razors or what have you. I apply a bit with a Q tip and then wipe with an Outer's Silicone Gun Cloth. After awhile the cloth is impregnated with the RIG and it is the best thing I have ever found.
Well, I'm not sure I can accuratly answer your question since the edge on my blades goes back to my noobie days around 8 months ago and probably gets better with the newer blades I added. Using mostly a different blade each day I may have used each about three times w/ too many different blades in between to remember the experiance with that blade the last time.
What I can say is that the different types of carbon steel will break down at different rates and the finer the edge, the faster it breaks down. Storage also plays a role in the rate of deterioration. Storing a blade in a container tht will not allow for air flow and/or absorbe mositure will have a faster oxidation than open air flow or absorbant material. That said, I purchased 5 straights 15 or 20 years ago at a local auction. The blades were in really fins shape with no rust or tarnish. I tried to figure out the straight razor stick nut with no internet or SRP to help me I didn't get too far. I put the blades in a paper covered wood cigar box and stashed it in a draw. Aout 8 months ago I dug them out when my son started shaving. They looked like they did when I put them away 20 years ago. One was a Pipe, one a WP&R Wheel, one a Wade and Butcher, one a Robeson and the last I don't recall the make of right now. I would asume they are different steel composition so the storage preserved them. Here's a pic of the Robeson (made ny Boler). I didn't do any Mass or other polishing to it befor the pic. Why did these stay so well preserved w/o any oil or fancy protection? Was it the cigar box? :shrug: This may be a good experiment for someone that has the time and patients. Has anyone tried parking their straights under a pyramid yet? :w I am curently storing my blades in test tube stand that holds 50 blades, tooth brush stands and some in razor rolls in a safe with lots of large silicone gel packs. No issues of rust. Previously I had some in the china cabinet for a while just to keep them out of the way and I notices corosion on the edges after a few weels. I have two tool boxes of presision Tool Maker tools w/ the silicone packs and the tools are as good as they were 17 years ago when I packed them up while other hand tools in the same room but not the tool boxes rusted. I am sure this will relate to the edge of our blades and am interested in hearing about other success stories where the process did not involve oils even though oils do provide a solution as do others like Tough Glide.
Up until the MN get-together, I had been dipping my razors in a 0.5% solution of olive oil in isopropyl alcohol to protect my blades. Terry Knipschield, the knife maker, told me at the get-together that it was his understanding that olive oil is slightly caustic to steel.
I hadn't considered that, but as Bruce pointed out, olive oil is a vegetable oil, and is actually a fat. Camellia oil is as well. When either breaks down, the resulting fatty acids could interact with the steel and cause its degradation.
For that reason, I have switched to using a solution of mineral oil and isopropyl alcohol. The mineral oil should be inert and so blades should last longer with it.
I would suggest that Camellia oil should not be used for long term protection of blades.
I haven't noticed any edge problems with more than six razors that sort of fell out of my usual rotation. They were sharpened and stored for at least 8 months. All were coated with mineral oil and placed in a plastic pencil box containing a desiccant. About half were also in their own boxes.
Lynn
Regarding your post on 12 - 11 - 08 about Edge Deterioration, I'm wondering if there is the possibility that minute air pockets are formed in the steel during the forging process and manifest themselves on the edge. I have a carbon razor from the 40's or 50's that is essentially a brand new razor I purchased in the 1960's and only started using within the last year. I discovered the deteriorated edge on the same day that I came across your December 08 post.
I look forward an acceptable explanation for this phenomena. If you ever find out the source of the problem, please post it. Thanks ..... JERRY S
Interesting thread that I must have missed back in December so here are my thoughts.
As a sailboat owner who is working toward selling everything that doesn't fit on the boat and leaving for good it seems like I'm dealing with the issue of long term storage in a highly corrosive environment on a daily basis.
It's been my experience that unless whatever you are trying to "preserve" is completely clean and dry before you apply whatever preservative you are using there is the chance that there will be just enough contaminant present to cause trouble...and that includes treating a dry material in a humid environment. It could be those razors that seemed to dull while in storage were not as clean as you thought when you oiled them or at some point became contaminated due to a less than complete application of oil...and I'm not trying to slam you with this remark as I've had stuff rust that I had thought was bulletproof because some of the preservative had wicked off due to inadvertent contact with an absorbent material.
It's also been my experience with razors that it's pretty easy to damage the edge while prepping them or cleaning them for use after storage. Even tissue paper (or a Q-Tip) can dull the edge if you're not careful. The other thing I've noticed is when switching between different razors there is a short re-learning period before my technique is up to par and I'm fairly sure I've needlessly rehoned a few.
Or maybe you just have bathroom gremlins that sneak in a shave with your stored razors. :rofl2:
Thanks for resurrecting this -- I will have a chance to test this
in a couple months when I return to my home and native land.
I usually store my razors without any oil of any kind, so these
will have 4 months of disuse without protectant. I shall report
back, but you folks will have to be patient :)
- Scott
Hey Lynn, do you think it may just be that your honing's improving over time & that you can get better results as time passes than when you last honed the razor? That's what i find too!:rofl2:
This is in reference to Lynn's December '08 post.........
:hmmm:
I just had another thought about the possible cause of edge deterioration. Back in the 90's I killed quite a few Bonsai trees by watering them with "softened" water until a co-worker pointed out that by passing my house water through a water softener was putting salt in my water and the salt killed my trees.
Rinsing my razors in softened water might also be damaging the blade edges. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?? JERRY
mrsell63, you are exactly correct. The "filters" that are sold to softer our homes' water aren't filters at all, they are ion exchange resins. True, they take out Calcium, Iron etc which result in hard water but the metal ions have to be replaced with another metal ion, mother nature doesn't like to allow electrically charged anything, much less water. So the Calcium, Iron and other ions in regular tap water are replaced by Sodium ions and so you are drinking dissolved Sodium ions which we all know is bad for one's health and is more corrosive that the metal ions it removed. If you buy the more expensive Potassium ion exchange resins the bad effects to your health are averted but the water still is quite corrosive. I drove a girl salesperson crazy one evening with all this. she finally left in tears. That's the kind of amusement that PhD chemists enjoy!!!
So where do we get non corrosive water to drink ? Non PHD mere mortals want to know .Quote:
Originally Posted by blaireau
Reverse-osmosis filters sound good.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Or plain old water distillers if the energy cost doesn't concern you. (I figure if I'm using electricity to heat my house I may as well put it to double use by running electrical devices other than simple heaters.)
I have been surviving on tap water. :shrug: That is what i mostly drink. Coffee in the morning and water for the rest of my day & night. So far so good. :)
Pure spring water...
Filtered through a Yellow/Green Escher no doubt. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by blaireau