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From what i read, honing straights will not get them as sharp as DE or SE blades.
Personnaly i use a feather AC and it's sharper and smoother than any straight i have.
Some members have honed with different angles from 14 to 20 degrees.
They report that smaller angles are sharper,
yet Zowada says that feathers are about 22 degrees
I'm puzzle. Anyone has theories or comments on that.
I have no real evidence to back this up other than personal observation on feather's agressiveness, but I think that feathers might be sharper because the steel is stiffer. I think straight razor edges are thinner and have more elasticity. I find real straights much more forgiving, and give me a more comfortable shave than a feather. I'd take comfort over closeness any day.
You know I have heard this for some time now, that DE and SE blades are sharper than straights...
I have also told people numerous time to use either one, to get a feel for how the edge tests (TNT, TPT, HHT) should look and feel when learning to hone....
I have always taken this to be a true statement, until I actually bought a DE and actually used it ONCE to shave with before selling it.... (not for me)
At that time I took one of the DE blades and did what I had told people to do many times, and tried the blade tests myself... Needless to say I was not all that impressed with what I found, it passed all the tests and I still think it is a good way to learn how the tests should feel, but I would put any of my edges against those Personna edges any day of the week...
I have never even held a Feather so I could not say on that one...
That's my new 2 cents...
So from now on I will not automatically assume that machine made edges are better than hand honed straight edges, I wanna see it, and have it proved to me....
I'm with you Glen. I used a DE for 6 months and tried maybe 20 different blades and after my experience with my straights some have proven to be as sharp or sharper but smoother than any DE blade including the Feather.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
bj
I shave customers at my barbers shop fpr health and saftey reason and i have to say they are ultra sharp.But in some ways to sharp you have to have an ukltra light touch with these kind of blades as to much pressiure and you will easily get blood spots which is'nt aproblem but still is'nt good. I have used straight razors and they are more forgiving by far it sounds daft but you can realy get stuck in with astraight and they are ten times more forgiving provided the blade is honed up nice you will get as closer shave but a lot more smoother silky feeling with no irritation at all . The problem is many peaple go from feather artist or dovo shavette to a full on cut throat and it will be differant especialy if it is not quite shave ready and they think what this aint a patch on my feather. When have hoined your own straight up to parr and you do get a great shave with a straight razor you will never use that feather again i don't and never will i have 21 razors now and i try to use them all and i find they all sound differant and shave differant. Best thing you could do is buy a shave ready blade then you will see the differance.
I don't know, guys...I honestly think there is no physical way for a straight to be that much better than a DE. I mean, I have never gotten a good straight shave, but after a good DE shave I am BBS for an entire work day, and I am smooth enough for work for a solid 20 hours...I have a fairly coarse, fast growing beard, too. Before, when I was using an electric, my beard grew back in about 6 hours. Unless a straight will keep me hairless for days, it's just not conceivable for the shave to be greatly superior.
I'm not arguing that straights are inferior to DE, not at all, I just don't think that Straights are as superior to DEs as is often argued. Taking the reduced learning curve and reduced maintenance into account, you shouldn't discount DE shaving. I will never give up my Futur...no matter how good my straight shaves get.
Don't hate on them...they're an excellent option.
I agree with Glen about the sharpness, although among the DE blades, the Feathers are very sharp.
It's not all about sharpness though. With a straight, you can constantly vary the angle, like a constantly adjusting Futur. Especially helpful when the surface is not flat, like in the chin and jaw areas. With toe/heel-leading, it is like a Slant. Especially with hollow grounds, the edge flexes for an extra close shave, something the thin DE razor can't do well because it is clamped down to the safety bar. If you do better with thicker wedges, that is not really an option with DE's unless you go for a thicker Gem SE.
I don't know... straight razors seem sharper to me than feathers... are you guys honing them right?
I started shaving with DEs in the early 1960s with the Gillette blue blades and they were terrible. When the Platinum Plus were introduced they were worlds better and more $$ too. I went to the Gillette Good News when they made the scene in the early '70s and other then a brief unsuccessful fling with straights in the mid '80s I stayed with the "Good News" up until late '06. Then I returned to the DEs and found that Feathers and Gillette Swedes were great blades.
I didn't necessarily get better shaves because of the blades and the DE, rather the techniques I learned with preparation, lathering and most of all multiple passes. Instead of trying to get it all with one pass the two pass shave was the ticket for me. I had the DE RAD as anyone who knows me would expect so I have pretty much tried all of the options and settled on the Merkur slant as my go to DE.
When I returned to the straights it was reluctantly. I had tried them twenty + years before and never had a truly shave ready razor. I had some Belgian stones but was given poor info regarding honing and had no success. I was convinced that the straights were inferior to the alternatives.
Now I know that a truly shave ready straight razor is better then any alternative I have used in past years. Not only in sharpness but as has been previously mentioned in smoothness. Weepers and irritation are a thing of the past and using the prep and multiple pass techniques learned with the DE I have never gotten better shaves. YMMV.
One comparrison, by yours truly.
Post #26, and post #33 show the Feather edge and my honed edge.
What a DE blade has over a straight egde is a PFTE friction reducing coating that really helps give it "glide" over your skin. It is not any sharper IMHO.
I am always astounded by how smooth a Feather DE blades shaves.
As you mentioned, on the Feathers the PFTE / teflon coating helps, as does the second micro-bevel (which your pictures illustrate well).
I wonder, though, if there isn't something also to the thinness (or thickness) of the width of the sharpened object -- like the difference between a full hollow and a wedge. It isn't sharpness, per se, but the object's ability to cut, such that something thinner will cut something easier.
I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I've been pondering the edge difference between hollows and wedges.
cass
I am coming to believe more and more from all the evidence being presented here and elsewhere that the differences between a straight and commercial blades in the area of keenness are nil. From everything I'm reading the so-called pulling etc with a straight is due to shaving technique and lather quality. The commercial blades compensate or avoid the possibility of pulling through the use of coatings. Any pulling is not so much a result of keenness or a lack thereof but of the blade catching the follicle - I believe. I could be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
With edges keened on a Belgian only and good lather I get no pulling sensation which has always lead me to believe that people who do get it are doing something wrong. Some have even talked of getting a pulling sensation with a Feather shavette contraption. I just have to believe that's due to technique as I'm guessing even the open blades from Feather are coated.
Anyway, those are great pics and they say a lot. Those Feathers look absolutely jagged next to your blade and yet some people report them to be smoother than traditional straights. It's gotta be the coating. The pictures say it all.
Regards,
EL
I have never used a double edge (DE) but the other night, Don was talking straights vs DEs with a bunch of people and he said that you cannot get a straight to be as sharp as a DE. Fact or fiction?
Al raz.
Fiction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alraz
You may not be able to get it as smooth feling on the skine, as per the mention of PTFE films. But it can certainly get as SHARP.
I hope mparker chimes in here as he read the Verhoven paper closer than I did. If my memory serves me right Professor Verhoven found that in terms of keenness as defined by edge thickness commercial blades and straights are virtually the same. The coatings put on commercial blades prevent them from grabbing the skin as much if at all. This suggest the possibility that greater pressure can be used which may account in some cases for perceived differences in keenness. I'm just speculating.
In general though I am of the opinion that you can get straights as keen as commercial blades. I've been of that opinion for a long time. Even the old Arthur Boon literature mentions that straights can be made sharper than a DE (if I recall correctly) using modern pastes and hones etc.
I also think that there will always be divergent opinions on this matter. Ce la vie.
Regards,
EL
Here's a pic I took of the Merkur DE blade. same 200x magnification.
I never liked how they felt on my face....
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/attachm...1&d=1213975869
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
I used to feel as you do. That all the "fuss" about how long lasting a straight shave was compared to even a good DE shave was a bunch of hype/wishful thinking.
But after a while, the closeness of a straight shave really does significantly exceed that of a DE.
I also have a Futur. It is an awesome razor, especially when loaded with a Feather!
I haven't used it since July......:w
I'm kinda interested in an idea I just got. I remember reading a thread about possibly making ceramic straight blades, but that it would be a horrible idea because it would be TOO sharp, to the point where it would be hard to shave with and not cut into your skin.
So this makes me wonder if it really matters if DE is sharper, because that might not necessarily mean better results or less irritation.
Do any of you guys know if it would be possible to coat a straight in any way to make it glide like a DE blade?
This is where the skill of lathering comes into play. If you learn how to lather to make thick dense wet foam (but not pasty) then you don't need a coating. Besides you'd have to re-coat the blade after every touch up. That might be a pain.Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboy
Regards,
EL
:hmmm: A thought just occured to me about the coating, are we not also putting a coating on the straight razor edge when we strop???
You can have my Futur when you pry it out o my cold, dead hands...:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
As for coating...Glenn, the way I understand coating of DE blades is, the coating seeps into all the little serrations that remain in steel after grinding and polishing, kind of filling it in like spackle. The platinum/ceramic (in the case of Feathers) covers those serrations so it makes a smoother shave. I guess good stropping on good steel has a similar smoothing effect in straightening out the serrations, but they're still there, aren't they? (I'm speaking with very little knowledge of straights, except what I've picked up reading this forum and the Wiki religiously for the past week or so...I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be argumentative.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I've always suspected that stropping is our way of applying the secondary bevel. You'll notice a big difference in shave quality when you truely learn how to strop an edge. This secondary bevel is applied with a slight deflection that occurs natuarally with a hanging strop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcw122
Yeah, some nutjob here at SRP is already trying that...
I don't think that it fills in the serrations. In the pic I linked to earlier, you can see that the edge has a fair bit of structure to it. My straights are much smoother than that, but the Feather "glides" better. I think it's a coefficient of friction issue, not a physical smoothness issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
http://www.badgerandblade.com/vb/att...1&d=1213977637
I couldn't see any Feather pics. The straight pics are there though.
And I would put one of your edges up against a Derby Extra DE blade any day of the week, too. When I received my Glen sharpened straight, I compared it directly to a Derby Extra DE blade. I did all the usual tests, as well as a few *unusual* tests. ;) There was no discernible difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
To those that say that DE blades are sharper, I would counter the argument that there is a difference between ease of use and sharpness. The DE blade, and it's corresponding "safety razor" take out *alot* of the variables that can cause uncomfortable shaving; safety razors are *much* easier to just pick up and get a comfortable shave without much learning curve. If you take a straight of equivalent sharpness, given correct technique, you will get *at least* as close and comfortable shave as with the DE.
Let's say that on one day, you give a guy an adjustable safety razor with a new blade in it, set to it's least aggressive setting. Don't give him any instructions (he's never used one before), and let him get to work. he'll probably get a decent shave.
The next day, give him a straight of corresponding sharpness. Again, don't give him any instructions. Let him get to work, but make sure you have the Red Cross there to replace the lost blood.
Summary: I'd put a honemeister sharpened blade up against any machined DE blade anytime. Sharpness isn't to be confused with ease of use.
Unfortunately my machine crashed so I lost the verhoeven paper and the 1920's popular mechanics article but that was one of the first things Verhoeven looked at. He compared a commercial razor blade (he didn't say if it was a DE or cartridge blade) and a straight razor that was honed by a guy he knew that still shaved with a straight. Both the commercial blade and straight razor averaged 0.5 microns across the edge as measured at 3000x with an electron microscope. The other interesting thing is that Verhoeven was able to get that same 0.5 micron edge with 9 micron diamond paste, an 8000 grit waterstone, and 0.5 micron diamond and chrome oxide. The finer grits simply gave him a higher level of polish and less variation in the cutting edge width along the blade. Oh and there were no serrations at the edge at anything finer than about 800 grit. You could see the grooves going down the bevel, but the cutting edge itself was formed where the steel finally got too thin and just kind of tore off. Softer steels couldn't take quite this fine of an edge, and steels around 63 rockwell could take very slightly finer edges (0.48 or some such).Quote:
Originally Posted by elbonator
The other interesting article is an article on the Schick website titled "Making of the Modern Blade" which mentions that they put the teflon coating on the blade specifically to reduce the cutting friction, which reduces the pulling sensation and improves the sensation of sharpness. This was a good clue that the reason the finer grit hones produce a better shaving edge is because the more polished edge causes less friction when cutting through the whisker.
And finally, the 1920's popular mechanics article examined the degradation of an edge across several days of shaving, both with and without stropping. They used a 3000x optical microscope to do this, so the pictures don't have the stunning clarity of Verhoeven's electron microscope, but the results were comparable. Their photos also show the torn-looking edge for example, and they were quite surprised by the lack of serrations or teeth. But most importantly these photos show that the main cause of dulling is corrosion and not wear. The stropping action knocks off the softer corrosion, exposing the pitted steel below, then further stropping polishes the underlying steel a bit. My suspicion is that one of the reasons razors gradually get to the point where stropping doesn't help is because the bevel near the edge gets corroded and pitted enough that the cutting friction is just too high, so you need the hone to cut the steel back past the pitting. Remember the cutting edge is also slicing through the top layer of skin, so it's exposed to a pretty harsh environment for steel. I suspect this is also why vintage razors sometimes need to be honed so much before they shave well - their edges are shot through with microscopic pinholes of rust, and it's not so much that they won't hold an edge (though this also happens) as they're simply too shot through to provide a polished low-friction bevel.
Two side-effects of studying this issue are that I've become much more appreciative of aggressive use of the linen strop, and a lot less critical of guys who use pastes. They're both a means to keep that edge polished, it just depends on whether you prefer the romanticism of the 19th century linen or the efficiency of 20th century industrial abrasives.
Exactly. The limit to edge sharpness is the type of steel the blade is made of. Both sharpening machine and honemeister are capable of reaching that limit.Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
If the best steels are only capable of a 0.5 micron edge, how sharp an edge can ceramics acheive? I know that diamond can acheive edges 1 atom thick based on an article that used a scanning tunneling microscope.
DE razor blades always pass the hht with ease andja don't even have to strop:shrug:
Found the Verhoeven paper, and I misremembered the numbers a bit. He measured the stainless steel Gillette blade at 10,000x power and found the edge varied between 0.35 and 0.45 microns, and the stainless steel solingen straight razor that he measured also had an average edge thickness of 0.40 microns.
As mentioned above...
Link to Verhoven:
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads...nifeshexps.pdf
Link to "Popular Science" article:
Google Image Result for http://blog.modernmechanix.com/mags/qf/c/PopularScience/10-1931/lrg_cover.jpg
Also "Modern Mechanix":
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2006/...about-shaving/
According to Verhoeven "In the absence of burs, the force required to push a knife through a material is dependent on the sharpening angles and the thickness of the knife blade."
Given that a DE blade is much thinner than a straight razor immediately behind the honed edge, this alone could account for the feeling that it is easier to cut with a DE even if the blades are both perfectly honed at the same angles. If one accepts this, it also implies something else, but possibly less welcome - of these two equally sharp blades, the straight, which requires more force to push its edge through the hair, is going to be exerting that force on the hair whilst the edge works through the shaft. That would be perceived by the hair follicle as more tugging than from the thinner DE blade requiring less force to pass through the hair shaft.
At the end of it all, this is interesting but won't change my tool of choice; I like to know when I am being shaved!
Chris
Dr. Moss, I see what you're saying but my thoughts are that it might not be that relevant with shaving as all edges are cutting at an angle.Quote:
Originally Posted by drmoss_ca
I really do believe that any pulling sensations the straight imparts are from catching the skin pressure. The coating effect is what inoculates modern blades from this and allows greater pressure when shaving.
I wish I could remember the article I read some years back that was a from the early part of the twentieth century where the complaints of early DE users are recorded as being that the DE's are not as sharp as straights and "pull". If this is an accurate reflection my theory is this comes from two things: DE's not being coated at that time and too much pressure when shaving. The DE as well as other more modern blades lend themselves to the temptation of applying pressure (though you're definitely not supposed to with a DE) and many people probably did make that mistake just like straight razor users who have not learned proper technique.
An interesting experiment to test this theory would be for a DE user to get one of those old hones for DE blades off of ebay, hone a blade so that the coatings are removed and then shave with it. It would be ideal if the user was also familiar with straights and could then compare the two.
Regards,
EL
That is only true if the object being cut, is bigger than the blade width. Verhoeven was not talking about shaving as such. A hair diameter varies from 50 to 120 microns. As soon as the hair is severed, it doesn't affect the force required to cut any longer. With both DE blades and straight razors the hair is severed long before the cutting bevel has passed, hence the thickness of the blade has no part in that. The only contributing factors are the enclosed angle of the cutting bevel and the refinement of that bevel's tip.Quote:
Originally Posted by drmoss_ca
The simple fact is, most commercial blades are sharpened in a controlled and highly technological environment. Most razors are home honed. Glen, in posses of all the right tools and skills, has the ability of making a razor keener than the average commercial blade. Not all home honers shave with such keen razors. But with more knowledge and tools available than ever before, many straight razor users today match the keenness of commercial blades.
There are many things in this thread, that I don't agree with. Too many.
While DE-blades may rust to dullness, I think most razors do not. Many oil their blades, some use stainless steel razors. Those razors do not corrode to dullness.
Stropping is not abrasive for steel. Maybe for rust, but not for steel. If it was, every strop would start to show black discoloration within one or two months of daily use. CrO loaded strops show such discoloration after very few stroppings. Clean leather does not.
Those "Popular Science" articles should be approached with caution. The pictures err on optical resolution. The presented facts about disposable blades cannot be transposed just like that to nowadays straight razor edges. During my DE days, I never dried a blade. I rinsed them with cold water and stored them in the bathroom. My razors receive much more care than that.
Bart.
my straight razors can pass the HHT in BOTH directions at a variety of angles... and i don't strop eitherQuote:
Originally Posted by Shavelle
also, stainless steel blades should also stain at the very edge. i've never seen it myself but in theory it's the oxidation that protects the steel from further oxidation.