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I recently obtained a razor that I really like, but ,unfortunately, the smile had been honed straight and, may even have a slight frown. I would rather not breadknife it. I don't want to remove a lot of metal. Is there another way of dealing with this that would retain more of the blade?
Thanks,
Ed M.
Since this is in the advanced section, I would answer that breadknifing does not mean only bringing the razor to straight....
It can can used on a smiling razor also, or to bring back the smile...
I would suggest that you take a magic marker and start at the thinnest point on the blade, and draw a line from that point to the toe, then to the heel using the smile curve that you want.... Now look at how much metal needs to be removed to accomplish this and make a decision as to whether that would help or hurt the final outcome of the razor....
This might actually need to be done with a Dremel or grinder to have the proper geometry...
Working out a frown....thats a tuff one. If there is a frown then I would put 3 layers of tape on the spine and start honing on a 200-320 grit sandpaper. I would use a straight across stroke with a bit of pressure. That will get you back to a straight edge. But it will take time and several sheets of sandpaper.
Restoring a smile is also a bunch of work. What I have done is to use a narrow, coarse hone, 1000 grit ( I prefer sandpaper), and then if working the heel, do 1 stroke on just the heel and then one full stroke. Then one stroke on the toe and then one full stoke. Do not perform 2,3,4 strokes on the heel and then one full stroke. The reason is that the multiple heel strokes develop a "groove" that takes more than one full stroke to correct.
This is really slow work but it can be done.
I learned this the hard way!
Wow, that does sound like a bit of work.
Well, I knew it would be. Thanks for the information.
The only thing I'll add is that bringing back a smile is not something to do on a lark. Its not basic honing. Its an advanced operation best left to skilled honers. Of course if you have a junk razor and want to experiment thats another thing.
In addition to the other great posts above, I'll add that breadknifing doesn't remove any more metal than any other method. if you have a 6/8 razor with a slight frown and you have to remove approx 1/8" of metal to give the blade a smile, then you can breadknife it into the shape of a smile, dremel it into the shape of a smile, or use standard honing strokes to get it there, or any other way. No matter what you do, you have to remove that exact same amount of metal. I can draw diagrams to illustrate this, but hopefully you can visualize well enough.
Standard honing on an aggressive stone with several layers of tape is an easy way to get really good at changing tape, and I hate that. It also takes forever. Dremels can be hard to control, and mistakes happen easier. Breadknifing is slow and controlled, and IMHO is the easiest way to set a nice smile evenly. This is a case where "all roads lead to Rome", but some roads are more easily travelled than others. I'd rather breadknife it and then set the bevel. It's easier for me to get nice results this way.
To bread knife or not! That is the question!
For shaping the edge the bread knife technique is faster but then you have this really, really dull edge that takes forever to re-establish the bevel!:rant:
I know, it really is personal preference. A guy has to try both ways to see which is preferable. A better way is to buy a razor that does not have a frown!:D ( I should be so lucky!:))
I've dragged the ends of the razor over the edge of a coarse hone several times in incrementally longer strokes so that the preferred shape comes back. Worked pretty well.
X
How to hone a smile: 1961 Barbering Text - Honing.pdf http://straightrazorpalace.com/downl...p?do=file&id=2 ref. pg. 24.
Any given smile profile will require the removal of the same amount of metal (breadknifing or not). I think it's faster to breadknife the profile until it's close and then hit the bevel planes. (Instead of removing steel from only the bevel planes until the right profile is reached.)
I use 220 or 400 grit wet/dry (used wet) on a flat plate. work the heel of the razor back and forth for a while, then the toe. Apply pressure to either the toe or heel, depending on where you are working.
No "use only the weight of the blade" here! You are trying to remove material.
A 1200 dimond plate is also quite effective!
Don't be shy, have at that razor! It's a tough piece of high carbon steel, it can take what you can dish out.
By not breadknifing, nor taping the spine, you will be then be able to set the honing bevel on the spine to the new smiling edge profile, thus enabling easier honing later down the line.
If you breadknife a ceratin smile profile, how do you then get the honing bevel to match it? Isn't that a similar issue that the Double Arrows have, where the heel of the blade does not contact the hone due to the wide shoulder up at the honing bevel?
It is a PITA no matter how you go about it. I have done it on a real bear of a frown. I first tried the coarse DMT 325 with three pieces of tape but the frown was so severe that I went to the breadknifing. The circles and back and forth strokes followed on the DMT 1200 to set the bevel. Had it not been a brand I really wanted I would have thrown it in the trash bin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
The link to the barber manual that Steven provided is one of my favorite resources. It displays sideways on my computers both at work and at home so I printed out a copy for each location to easily refer to it. The author provides a drawing or what he feels is the ideal blade profile and a method of honing to keep it that way. I have been playing with this in my regular honing and I like it.
Let's be real for a minute. No single tool maker (re)profiles and sharpens a cutting tool at the same time. First you need to establish the proper profile. Next you need to put an even bevel on that profile. Then you hone that bevel till it suits your needs. Whether I am talking about a woodworking gouge, a billhook, or a smiling razor makes not the least bit of difference.
By far, the easiest way to grind a smiling curve on a razor blade, is to put it with its edge down on a coarse hone (the DMT 325 is great for that), and "breadknife" with a rocking motion. It's easy to control, and pretty quick too. After you made the curve you wanted, you need to put 3 or 4 layers of tape on the spine and start using the rolling X-stroke. Use the same coarse hone and apply a bit of pressure, while completing the bevel till it extents all the way to the apex again. Next start backing of on the pressure, reduce the tape to 2 layers, and move up one grit-level. After that, finalize the bevel (with or without one layer of tape, according to your personal preference) on your normal bevel-correction hone (such as a DMT1200).
That's it.
Hone as smiling razor after that.
All the rest is making a straightforward task very complicated.
Bart.
I've just turned this
http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...9bp6290014.jpg
Into this
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_S6Qq2M8hM4g/SY...0668_large.png
with aggressive angles and bredknifing on a King 800 hone. It gave me an ok shave last night. Removing a frown should not be much more difficult.
This may be true, but for the sake of discussion, no other tool also includes a second surface that is also intended as a reference to use for sharpening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
And axe, knife, or whatever is a single edge, and thus can be shaped and sharpened however one pleases.
In my opinion, a razor is a peculiarity, as it has the spine upon which the razor is designed to rest to establish the final cutting bevel angle and edge.
Adding tape to the spine I guess adds a degree of "squish" to allow there to be some misalignment between the spine bevel and edge bevel. And that certainly is one way to skin the cat. I myself, prefer having the spine bevel match the edge bevel as it is less levels of ambiguity when honing, stropping, and re-honing a particular razor.
I sharpen most of my tools on a Tormek machine, that has tremendous accuracy in setting and holding the honing angle. This is irrelevant for the need to establish the desired tool shape first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
Doing that "honingly" is asking for difficulties.
I couldn't agree more. For establishing the bevel, the angle is dialed in by resting the razor on spine and edge. But that has nothing to do with altering the edge curvature, if that is desired. In this particular case, it is desired: the original poster wants to produce a smiling edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
The logical thing to to is to produce that smile first, and then create a bevel on it.
I am fairly sure that a razor maker would take the same approach while making a smiling razor blade. I can't imagine a razorsmith producing a straight edge before honing a smile to it. He will first grind the smile and next cut the bevel on a coarse hone.
I don't add tape for "squish". I add the tape, because I want to apply some pressure. That flexes the blade a bit, which flats out the honing angle, producing a slightly wider bevel. A few layers of tape counteract that. Before ending the bevel setting stage, I always remove the tape, back off on the pressure and continue honing for the most accurate bevel. I did my first bevel restores without tape, and they shave equally well, but their bevel starts with a small strip of coarse scratches, that can be seen with magnification only. Adding tape avoids that. I don't care about a spine bevel. I only care about a steady honing angle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
There is no single downside to this approach. It does not remove more steel than needed for the new edge shape. It is reliable, reasonably quick, and far easier than any other method that requires honing with variable pressure throughout the stroke, or shaping with a cutting disc on a Dremel.
If any method holds a risk to removing more steel than needed, then it's honing the new shape into the razor. With that method, it's very likely that you won't be able to recess the tip and the heal without affecting the middle part as well.
Bart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
Anybody still have this ??
It doesn't work :-((((
This should be the new link to the same pdf file: File:Help Files Permanent Archive Barbering Textbooks 1961 Barbering Text - Honing.pdf - Straight Razor Place WikiQuote:
Originally Posted by pet3r