try here:
Home
Or here:
Thorlabs.com - Fiber Polishing Supplies
And yes, the drawback to lapping film is the disposable aspect of things....other than that, it feels excellent to use, and the results are fantastic.
Printable View
try here:
Home
Or here:
Thorlabs.com - Fiber Polishing Supplies
And yes, the drawback to lapping film is the disposable aspect of things....other than that, it feels excellent to use, and the results are fantastic.
Do you use type A, B or P from PSI?
Thanks!
I have been using the .3um to finish I bought from Japan Woodworker and must say it has been the best honing item I have ever bought. perfection. No longer am i worrying if there is enough paste or spray on my wooden strop or cotton or if it has worn off yet or not...I simply know its on the film in the right concentration, no worries...this is enough of a reason I think to try and eventually switch...
Not to mention I bought 3 sheets ( really only will need 1-2 which I think will last me all year if not longer - subject to change with even more experience/use) plus shipping for less than $20....I dont think I will get a new stone close enough to match this...definitely worth trying...
I simply placed in on my glass dining room table with the adhesive backing still on and it created its 'own seal' and did not move at all...so for me, no need to buy a piece of glass or granite...perhaps in the future to be more portable / look nicer...
anyways, best of luck...
To the above poster, you can find some lapping film thats not too expensive and it will last you a while. I just get the finer grades and use them for finishing.
It's a totally different feedback when honing and you might not even like it. To me it seems like it's more forgiving than a stone.
Maybe someone could organize a group buy since there is so much interest.
If anyone is interested in taking the lapping sheets down to .1 micron (which I'm now addicted to), try this: 3M(TM) Diamond Lapping Film 661X, 0.1 Micron Sheet, 5.5 in x 5.5 in, 25 per inner 250 per case, distributed by R.S. Hughes - Industrial Distributor - Tapes, Adhesives, Abrasives, Safety, and Electronic Products
Thanks for the link FloorPizza that is an outstanding site.
Thanks for this thread guys. It is one I have read since the beginning and when I have a difficult razor I always end up here. I have come to realize that the final polishing of the razor does not make it sharper but smoother and get some really outstanding shaves. I personally have not used films in the past excep for difficult razors but I am becoming a convert.
Thanks,
Richard
This Lapping film sounds great, the only thing I'd be worried about is consistency. If your like Lynn, Glen and Max, etc.. and do honing professionally, it would get expensive. It doesn't seem cost effective. Hones last, and from what I read, you get 10-12 uses per sheet? So, I guess the level of consistency drops with subsequent honings, where they do not on an Escher or Nakayama. However, It'd be great for keeping your own collection good to go. Me, I hardly ever hone since I've started using a Swaty, Seriously. My blades tend to stay shave ready. If needed I go to the hard pressed wool with .5 Diamond Spray from SRD, and I'm good to to. I realize you can only do that so much before you do need to hit the rocks.
Do you need a USB microscope to look at your edges, or can you go by feel. The edges under Seraphim's microscope are impressive to say the least, What are the shave's like. I irritate if I use .25 Diamond Paste, so should I stay away from Diamond lapping film altogether?
In any case, it seems quite a few people are interested.
Can we get something in the WIKI to explain what's what, I.E. 5 UM = 4000grit aprox and 1 UM = 8000 grit aprox.
Also, Could the film be wrapped tightly around a DMT plate to hone on it? Can a piece of marble be used in lieu of glass?
Also, how many lapps is recommended on each, do you go by feel or what.....it would be nice....A complet idiots guide to film lapping...
I have found that they are very consistent and that would make sense because one of the uses is polishing fiber optic ends in communication. I would think that the particle size should be very consistent for any give sheet. Cost is high and I personally don't plan on using them on the higher grits. I love my Coticule and 16K Shapton but I have always been a 4 sided pasted strop guy with a finish of Chromium. I can see changing over to films for the 0.5,0.25,and 0.1. For me, honing has been an evolution and refinement of the end product is very evident to me.
If you look at an edge in the light without magnification after going just to 0.25 film you will notice a brilliantly reflective edge that I have not seen on any razor that I have done with just a pasted strop. I am in the process of shaving off 0.1 micron film, Aluminum Oxide not diamond, and I can tell you it is an awesome shave. As is being discussed in another thread about whether a razor can get to sharp Mparker762 makes a valid point, backed by research, that all you are doing after about the 4K mark is polishing the edge. I find that the 0.25 diamond paste on the pasted strop is harsh just like you do but, I find that shaving off a 0.3 film is not even in the same league. I would submit that my pasted strop will not have all the same size particles on them per given side, contamination for one thing, thus the harsh edge. The spray is probably a different matter but I would imagine that on a hard felt strop it is excellent because the particle size is very consistent in the spray, just a guess since I have not tried it.
I have learned a tremendous amount in the last month or so, about honing with conventional hones. I am also seeing, once again, material science is giving us tools to accomplish edges that were not obtainable on a straight edge until recently.
Thanks to this forum and its members for always pushing the envelope and thinking "outside the box". If you listen and keep your eyes open you can learn a lot here because the talent and combined knowledge that is offered here is quite astounding!
Take Care,
Richard
Its already there:
Using micro abrasive film - Straight Razor Place Wiki
You could use polished marble if you wanted to Its just more expensive than the glass. You wouldn't want to "wrap it" around anything for use it needs to be perfectly flat on a smooth surface.
I go from .25 diamond paste to the .1 micron film. BUT, you can go from pretty much anything to the .1 micron, and just use it to polish the edge that you have. However, just be aware of the fact that if you have, say, 8k scratches in the bevel, you're not going to be able to remove them with .1 micron. It's best to get the scratches down to a small size that the .1 micron can effectively remove. Like .25 micron.
Couldn't agree more, Richard. The final polishing really affects the smoothness of the edge/shave. Not the sharpness, per se.
Many good answers already.
5-6um=~4000 grit
3um=~8000 grit
1um= ~16,000grit
0.3um =~30,000 grit?
As with anything, there are pluses and minuses to the films. I LOVE the way they feel when honing on them, very velvety smooth, and they cut through any steel with ease. The downside is obviously that they have a limited lifespan.
I'll have to try the 0.3um again. My latest try resulted in alot of weepers. When I went back to 1um, that cleared it up. YMMV, etc...:)
Any advance on the topic?
I tried the diamond film and liked it. It cuts very clean and consistent, and your hone is always dead flat. Downside was it is expensive and it wears out. When you grab a used piece from the shelf you wonder if it is still good or not.
The non-diamond film is much more reasonable in cost. I haven't used it much to know if it works as well.
Here is a general little formula that I picked up somewhere on the forum a while back. It is a pretty good approximation.
Estimated Microns = 14755/Grit
for a 30k stone for instance
Estimated Microns = 14755/30,000
= 0.491 microns
Take Care,
Richard
Yes. 3M makes 2 micron Al2O3 films:
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawe...6EVs6E666666--
I just found that 1 and 3 µm films are easier available.
... does anyone know where i can find a video of how to use lapping film??
........i've read the thread, but if i don't see it being done, i don't want to try it....
.......thanks in advance......
You really do not need a video explanation. All the actions are exactly the same as with a "normal" stone.
All you need is a flat surface like a glass tile, or granite or similar.
If you have the PSA version: stick hte film to the subtsrate via the pressure sensitive adhesive.
If you have the non PSA version: wet the film and the substrate and the film will stick automatically.
Either way, wet the film afterwards and consider it a normal stone that does not need lapping, but will wear in time.
Carefully sharpen your razor in any direction you want
the desired lapping film grits are:
5µm for resharpening, quick and agressive like a 2k stone
3µm for prepolishing, quick but smoother. Like a 5k stone
1µm for absolute polish, quick, extremely smooth, extreme high polish
(keep in mind: these "grit to JIS" comparisons are made via my own experience. Do not get confused too much with the numbers and grit ratings)
...Lesslemming, thank you for the great information....
..........and even moreso for taking the time to write it all down.........
.........much appreciated.........
You do need to be careful with the higher grit films. When you hone edge into them and not trailing, they are very easy to cut.
Have fun.
I've done a few razors lately with some lapping film I got for free. I've used them just as any other hone, all edge leading.
Some suggested a trick using a sheet of wet paper under the final grit for the finishing, which have worked out quite good.
Very very nice edges off the film, good stuff for anyone on a budget, quite portable as well. :)
I use a damp piece of paper under films and it acts as a great cushion.
Film is probably the most effective hone I have used to date, it just isn't fun like stones are...
But they're extremely fast and efficient, a monkey can use them.
i have read a bunch about lapping film but where can i get it?? and are there some grits you just shouldn't use?
Try r.s. hughes
286x=.3 micron, 265x= 1 micron, 266x=3 micron
they have lots of cosrser stuff too.
McMaster-Carr carries the film.
I would only add that one needs to go 0.1micron film. I found that 1.0 left a very "toothy" edge that would cause some nasty slices and was very unforgiving . If you are going to stick with films try 0.1 CBN for a final polishing. You might then not need the 0.1 film...just a thought.
Take care,
R
In this case you must have done something wrong.Quote:
I would only add that one needs to go 0.1micron film. I found that 1.0 left a very "toothy" edge that would cause some nasty slices and was very unforgiving .
Here is an example of a magnified edge finished on 1µm (diamond) lapping film. I compared the diamond lapping film to the AluOx and there is only a slight advantage to the diamond.
Btw. Lynn stated the lapping film can be cut into easily. That is something that never happened to me but something to beware of.
Especially when honing free hand like with kitchen knives and stuff
Attachment 94264
Attachment 94265
I understand what you are showing and telling me but I still stand by my original perception. Want to push the envelope? Then try some scything. The 1.0 micron diamond edges shred and sliced my skin. I am not going by what it looks like because, like always, it is the shave that determines the edge. I have found that 0.1 just gives an edge that is much more forgiving. I have also found 0.1 CBN on felt even more forgiving and has been my edge of choice for well over a year now.
I come from and physics and chemical engineering background. When I first starting honing and tried contemporary ways of honing I attacked it from the standpoint that the finer the grit the keener and smoother the edge. Diamond edges were good but one day I bought a J-Nat and those stones will rock your perception of keenness and smoothness. I was thinking that it simply did not make sense. How could smoothness come from such stones? One of the secrets of the J-Nats is that their cutting particles were irregular and did not have the jagged cutting properties that diamonds have. The also break down as you hone, diamonds do not, they retain the same shape and size.
There are many different points of view on how a razor should shave and your needs and desires may be different but if you have never tried a natural edge you are in for a treat.
Take Care,
Richard
Hi Richard,
I am, too, coming from a physics and chemical engenieering background. I work at the R&D department of a German company for surface technologies, what a coincidence.
You are absolutely correct, and I do not want to argue your perceptions. My post was merely a response on the word "toothy" that I misread for meaning "jagged".
I now understand you mean aggressive, something that can not be argued.
I also see your point with japanese naturals, you may not know but if there is a stone on earth able to cut steel be sure I tried it.
I had all synthetic setups known to mankind (and stuck by the Shapton GS 1k to 30k) and had stones from 3 of the 5 legendary mines in japan,
Nakayama, Shoubudani, Ohzuku.
I recently added the 0.5µm diamond and 0.1µm diamond to my lapping film regiment.
Like I said I had been getting very good shaves from the 1µm (disclaimer: I do not mind agressiveness and feather like edges)
but the 0.5µm and 0.1µm did give me awesome edges, too. I was worried the 0.1µm would make the edge fragile and frayed
Between to scientists: The dogma of J-Nat particles break-down being the reason for their high quality is misleading and so far unproven.
An edge finished on a nice 10k edge sharpened on a J-Nat with water only will give extremely satisfactory edges as well :)
I have certainly enjoyed your photos. I ask if you have determined the fineness of jnat finishing stones? Max and minimum I guess. How do the best compare to lapping film?Thank you for being so inquisitive.