"Less is more" or honing and the use of RS microscope

Hello, I have Lynn's DVD and have studied it a few times. One of the highlights in his honing section of that DVD is that Less honing is more, better. So this raises a question to me since I have been learning to hone on used antique store str8s. If when using the RS microscope at 100x one sees that the edge has microscopic chips or unevenness. Is it the standard practice of the honers among us to hone until the edge is free of those microscopic divots and then to start a progression such as Lynn uses. This obviously can require substantial honing on a "damaged" blade, one that is not perfectly smooth at the edge, IE without chips or divots. So put another way, when is the less is more factor supposed to start in the honing of a non-sharp, irregular edge?

Thanks for your help.:confused:

Mark

I'm not sure I follow the context of your question. Less is more relates to all honing. So from where you are you can smooth the edge with 10 strokes or 100; when its smooth it doesn't get more smooth.

Its like stropping, once its stropped it doesn't get more stropped. One of the reasons I always failed to understand guys that strop a lot.

I smooth the edge out, usually I think, at about 60 mag.

I would suggest for the ease of argument that less is more, in this case, relates to the idea that smoothing the edge with the fewest strokes makes the most sense. Applying 100 strokes, and then determining if you've done enough could add about 80 unnecessary strokes. Another way to think of it is that a smooth edge looks unsmooth at 100 mag, but then again at 100 mag a hair looks like a tree. Doesn't mean you need a chainsaw.

I think I see what you're saying. Honing out chips may take a lot of laps which seem to contradict the less is more idea.

It's like AFDavis said, it applies the whole time. If it takes 300 laps to remove a chip then that is the minimum amount, no use doing an extra hundred laps for no reason. Now if 300 laps doesn't get out all the chips then you still need to do more laps.

At any step of the way you should be doing to least amount of laps needed in order to achieve your goal at that step. Whether it's chip removal, bevel setting, or polishing.

Though in my opinion, unless you're using a greater angle to remove a chip faster, chip removal and bevel setting tend to be the same thing. If I remove a small chip on a D6E I don't set the bevel after, it should already be set by virtue of the fact that I was just honing on the stone I set bevels on.

Edit: I see you're referring to micro chipping, the same idea applies, just maybe not 300 laps.

AFDAVIS, sorry about the clarity of the post. I guess I understand the concept of honing till it's done and not more and maybe a better way to ask is if you are using the rs scope, (I will use 60 mag if that is all I need) does that mean that at 60mag you hone, set the bevel, or clean up the edge with as many passes on the stone as necessary to achieve a smooth edge, even if it is a lot. I may have misunderstood Lynn's point in the DVD it just seemed like a conflict to my mind to hone so much. I am after all quite new to this.

Thanks for the help.

Great question. I am glad you asked it. I have thought about it and never did ask. I have been trying to practice that in my honing depending on the condition of the edge and I guess I am mostly not overdoing it.

When i first came around I read a lot of posts that I interpreted as saying you had to remove the previous scratch pattern completely and eventually getting up to the higher grits have a mirror polished edge. Seemed to contradict the less is more method.

I just rely on the TNT, TPT and the hair popping. Once I pass all of those and I am up in the high grit hone I will strop and shave. I will look at it under the 30x too and maybe go back to the hone if I need to but if it looks okay I'll strop and shave.

Here is a quote by Lynn regarding microscopes taken from an archived post that is now part of a Wiki article. My point in posting it is to shed some light on what Lynn is looking for through the lens. ;
Microscopes

"What I always try to look for through the microscope is to see if the edge is even in distribution across the razor. Next I want to make sure that the striations are tight and in most cases they do look darker through the microscope. I also try to make sure no shading up toward the edge and no micro chips near the edge. These usually indicate overhoning and the chips indicate that even if the razor is shaving sharp, it usually won't be as comfy as it should be. I don't try to compare my feather because even though the feather is a super shaver, I find it less for giving and a totally different experience than my regular straight razors. Keep us posted on your progress. "

I am using 30x because that is what I have. When I first started honing I came across a Green Lizard and honed it up and shaved with it. I got a decent shave with it. Shortly after that I got out my 30x microscope that I use on tattooing needles and started checking some of my honing out.

I was amazed to find that the Green Liz I had gotten a decent shave out of had micro chipping at the end of the blade for 3/4" from point toward the heel. I couldn't see them with the naked eye. I couldn't feel them with the TPT and didn't while shaving.

I looked at my other razors that I had shaved with and was surprised at what you can shave with. As I gain more experience I probably won't need to depend so much on the magnification,TPT, and do like Lynn says and make the shave the test. I suppose that is what we are all doing in the end anyhow.

I would just like to know how you use the RS microscope. i've been trying to figure out the best way to angle/hold the razor still and get the microscope centered/steady.

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

I would just like to know how you use the RS microscope. i've been trying to figure out the best way to angle/hold the razor still and get the microscope centered/steady.

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Ben ,since I just got mine yesterday I don't know if I am using it right or not but what I did last night was to put a white piece of paper on a flat surface, put the razor on the paper and lay the glass on the razor to see the edge. I found as I moved the glass the blade also moved so I used one hand to hold the blade still and the other to move the glass. I focused before I started moving. I read today in another thread found by searching "microscope" in the advanced honing section that some put the blade on the plastic foot between the foot and the lens. I tried that initially but because the foot is slanted and not parallel to the table the blade slid on the foot. Would be interesting to hear from others who use the RS scope.

Mark

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Originally Posted by mkevenson

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So put another way, when is the less is more factor supposed to start in the honing of a non-sharp, irregular edge?
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For blunt damaged edges (chips and such) I figure that the "less is more" stage begins when I can pass the TNT and marker test at the same time; regardless of what the microscope shows. After that point I might go an additional 5 to 20 extremely light laps before stopping. That depends on the particular hone being used.

EDIT: I almost never use a microscope. When I do use my RShack 60x-100x: I steady the razor by using some BlueTack or Elmer's reusable adhesive putty between the razor and 'scope.

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Originally Posted by Sticky

For blunt damaged edges (chips and such) I figure that the "less is more" stage begins when I can pass the TNT and marker test at the same time; regardless of what the microscope shows. After that point I might go an additional 5 to 20 extremely light laps before stopping. That depends on the particular hone being used.

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Steven, good point that you brought up. I also thought that the blade I was honing passed the tnt test. So I proceeded to hone from the DMT 1.2k, on to the 4k/8k and 12k, stropped and shaved. At the neck the blade felt not as sharp as I wanted it was kinda bouncy. So I reexamined with the scope and yes there were still irregularities in the edge, divots,chips or whatever, all not seen by the naked eye or even felt when I ran the edge of my finger nail along the edge of the blade. What is that test called? This set of events prompted this thread.

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Originally Posted by mkevenson

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I ran the edge of my finger nail along the edge of the blade. What is that test called? This set of events prompted this thread.

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Did it pass the TNT and marker test at the same time?

You should be able to feel any chips with the TNT test, especially if you dampen the nail first (unless the chips are on the bevel and not the very edge).

If you mean scraping your fingernail along the side, toward and then over the edge; that is for finding burrs.

You don't need to apologize. Sometimes its just hard to me to really figure out what the question is. Its hard for me to figure out where the problem is.

The RS microscope is set at a mid magnification and with the blade edge facing you you secure the non-apature section onto the spine and the apature side against the table. The entire microscope is secured over the top of the bevel.

Bevels are no different than tightropes. Honing too little or too much won't work. I suggest you just get a good edge off each grit, then move up. Do not hone repeatedly on one grit.

You should be able to develop a sense of what a 4K and 8K can do.

The way I think of it is like this. You have a hunk of steel. Using a flat stone, sculpt a perfectly balanced, smooth triangle on the end of the razor. Sharpness is a matter of using a light touch and removing as much of the edge as is supportable. If, in your effort to make the edge thin, you crumble the steel at the edge, then you've overhoned. Using the 4K and 8K together make the bevel, as thin as possible, without removing any more metal then required.

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Originally Posted by mkevenson

AFDAVIS, sorry about the clarity of the post. I guess I understand the concept of honing till it's done and not more and maybe a better way to ask is if you are using the rs scope, (I will use 60 mag if that is all I need) does that mean that at 60mag you hone, set the bevel, or clean up the edge with as many passes on the stone as necessary to achieve a smooth edge, even if it is a lot. I may have misunderstood Lynn's point in the DVD it just seemed like a conflict to my mind to hone so much. I am after all quite new to this.

When I teach honing classes I explain to people that honing is like shaping cheese. If you use a rough grater the cheese will crumble. If you leave the cheese in place and gently, lightly, use a really thin cheese grater, you can remove far less bevel and achieve far sharper of an edge. Like putting an edge on a hunk of cheese, rubbing the end with a heavy cheese grater will remove a lot of the edge, but using a piece of light sandpaper will allow you to sculpt the edge and leave a lot more metal, err I mean, cheese on the edge.

Thanks for the help.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mkevenson

So put another way, when is the less is more factor supposed to start in the honing of a non-sharp, irregular edge?

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I think in the context of Lynn's DVD it's when the edge is chip free and has a proper bevel. The number of laps it takes to get to that point depends on the razor (wedge or full hollow ground), how irregular the edge is, and what you have to work with in the way of stones.

And to get to that point (because I don't like marathon honing sessions) if I'm not getting the results I want after 30-40 laps I drop down to a lower grit stone. But if you have to work with what you have (say only a Norton 4/8K) rather than access to a full range of grits then you might spend a lot of time and laps getting to the "less is more" point.

It would be an interesting experiment to see if doing minimum laps going from say 1k to 4k to 8k causes less spine wear than starting at 4k and doing hundreds of laps getting to the point where you can move up to 8k.