To wet or not to wet.

Looked at some photomicrographs online that showed magnified views of various abrasive stones and sheets. It was truly revealing as to why the eschar stone is so respected - tremendous uniformity of grit size. What did surprise me was the difference in the smoothness of the edge produced with the same stone, first wet and then dry. You would think the wet stone would produce a smoother edge, but not so. The dry stone produces a MUCH smoother edge with way less scratches at 200X magnification.
My question is this. The manufacturers of stones recommend soaking and wetting the stone prior to use, but what are the consequences of not doing that and instead using the stone dry to hone the razor?
Thanks for all the help,
Don

The following words are from the knives.com site and are not my words, but I do love the part about the Juranich shaving his beard with an AXE !

John Juranich caused quite a stir when he announced some years ago that as a result of testing he believed that both water and oil stones gave a better edge when used dry. Amazing as this might at first appear his claims are not without some foundation. He tested oilstone and drystone techniques in a meatpacking plant. The study was blind as he was relying on the opinions of the meat cutters themselves who had no idea how any individual knife was sharpened. He explains the events in his book The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening which makes very interesting reading.
Juranich believes that the slurry produced by mixing oil and metal and abrasive particles acted like a grinding paste. He says the effect of having this slurry pass over the edge acted like the earth on a plow tip, rounding it off. On examination under electron microscope the oil sharpened edges were chipped.(F1)
He added emphasis to his point by shaving his generous beard on television, with an axe that he sharpened in a matter of minutes, using the dry sharpening method. Since Juranich's revelations the practise of drystone sharpening has grown in popularity

I've wondered about this myself. It might be worth testing with razors.

Then again, an even better method might be to use running water? :shrug:

Honing dry on a waterstone or oilstone sounds like a good way to load one up with some very hard to remove metal.

I've seen industrial grinders load up so badly, when the coolant/lubricant feeds stopped-up by accident, that the abrasive wheels were tossed as being un-recoverable.

I think the advantage of using water or oil is that is more capable of moving much more metal without clogging the stone. Having said that the dry method may have greater effect if used in the last stages of polishing. Maybe the running water as mentioned above would be the best of both worlds?
Mike

I just can't bring myself to hone dry. Even on a barber hone. What Steven said about the stone loading up is a fact. One of the reasons to use a liquid is that it is a vehicle to move the metal particles rather then grinding them into the stone. At least that is my uneducated guess. :shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I just can't bring myself to hone dry. Even on a barber hone. What Steven said about the stone loading up is a fact. One of the reasons to use a liquid is that it is a vehicle to move the metal particles rather then grinding them into the stone. At least that is my uneducated guess. :shrug:

---

+1 and the fact the oil/water acts as a lubricant.

What about on nonporous stones? I'd imagine that a stone like a swaty is harder than the particles removed from an edge of a razor. I don't think it would be easy to keep water on it without the use of soap or lather, either. Especially with the pressures and angles involved. But I do think that you would have to have a smoother honing surface to get the desired results because there is no cushion there from any lubricant. I do think that material could get in scratch lines left from lapping and collect to form a dry slurry that might cause some problems. Well, not problems, just the results you would expect from a slurry on small portions of the edge.

addirSomewhere in the dark recesses of my brain I inherently knew about dry honing glazing or loading up the stone. I desperately am searching for that photomicrograph that compared the scratches on the blade edge after being sharpened dry vs. wet. You would not believe the smoothness of the dry sharpened edge compared to wet sharpened. The same exact stone and blade was used in the comparison. I included some information I found about cleaning stones although some of this may not apply to some natural stones or composites that recommend against prolonged soaking. The following are not my words (don't want to plagiarize):

All sharpening stones should be lubricated while in use, so the pores can float off and not clog the pores of the stone. Special honing oil is available, but kerosene works very well as a lubricant. In an emergency, even water may be used as a lubricant. If a stone cuts too rapidly, it can be tempered by soaking it in a pan of hot petroleum jelly, filling the pores of the stone with a thick lubricant. If the pores have been filled due to improper lubrication, clean your stone by soaking it in kerosene, then wash off the surface with a brush soaked in kerosene. This technique can even be used to reclaim almost worthless old stones that most people would consider useless or have already discarded!



For those with inquiring minds, be sure to read the following after expanding to the full page view by clicking in the paper's top right corner:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/10044505/E...John-Verhoeven

There may be something to it. I talked with an Australian woodworker some time ago (I don't believe he's an SRP member) who's shaved with a straight razor for decades. He uses ceramic stones for honing his razors and told me that he perfers to use them dry.

Honing dry to me on coticules, etc the bit I've done so far gives me a similar sensation to fingernails on a chalk board. It's weird, but I don't like it.

Chris L

For what it's worth, when I first came around these parts there were a lot of posts advocating using the coticule dry for the ultimate polish.

That is actually my reason for buying it. It was said that you could use it with a slurry, use it wet, or use it dry, each producing a finer level of polish.

Personally I use never use it dry because I like the feedback I get when I use the wet stone.

Finally found the site that compares dry honed to wet honed . It really depends on the stone, but you can also see why eschers are regarded so highly.

Zowada Custom Knives - Razor Bevels

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dicharry

Finally found the site that compares dry honed to wet honed . It really depends on the stone, but you can also see why eschers are regarded so highly.

Zowada Custom Knives - Razor Bevels

---

This was not a comparison of wet and dry honing. In Tim Zowada's images, only the Spyderco UF was used dry. The rest of the hones were used wet, either with or without slurry.

I think the most important aspect pertaining to wet vs. dry honing is the stone's porosity, as Cliff above mentions. I know when I hone on my norton 4k if I don't keep refreshing the water the stone will get black! But I've tried using my pocket knife on my coticule dry just for fun. I can go nuts on the stone and get a lot of metal material off of the knife, but it'll come right off of the surface of the stone.

For final polishing stones I think dry will work very well. I've tried my little vintage thuringian dry and it polishes very well. But to be honest, it doesn't feel the greatest! Put a little soap in the water and splash a little on the stone....aaaahhh...feels SSOO nice to hone on now.

If I had a range of stone, i.e. 1000, 4000 and 8000, that were all non-porous, then I would give dry-honing a go. But since my lower grit stones clearly would glaze over without water, I think I'd leave dry honing to my final polishers (But I won't only because I don't like the feel!).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dicharry

Finally found the site that compares dry honed to wet honed . It really depends on the stone, but you can also see why eschers are regarded so highly.

Zowada Custom Knives - Razor Bevels

---

The difference between Coticule - No slurry vs Coticule - With Slurry is just incredible.
I must learn to take pictures that well at 200X.

I stand corrected. Utopian is right . The comparison specifically states slurry vs no slurry.

I'm thinking that Rajagra has the right idea about using running water during the sharpening process.

Here's some more information I found:

Everyone knows you need to lubricate your sharpening stone with water or oil, right? So the question is which one is better. Neither. The purpose of a sharpening stone is to grind the edge and remove metal. Oil reduces friction and makes the process much slower.

Supposedly oil helps float away metal particles that would otherwise clog the pores of the stone. You can do the same thing by wiping the stone with a damp cloth when you’re done. Steve Bottorff reports that you can clean your Arkansas stones with paint thinner. Synthetic stones clean up with a scouring pad and abrasive cleanser.

According to Joe Talmadge, if you have already used oil on your Arkansas stone, you’ll probably need to keep using oil. But if you have a new Arkansas stone, a diamond stone or a synthetic stone, go ahead and use it without oil or water. It will work much better.

John Juranitch reports that in his company’s work with meat processing plants they discovered that the metal filings suspended in the oil on a stone actually chip and abrade the edge. Although these chips were only visible through a microscope, the meatpackers readily noticed the difference between the knives sharpened on a dry stone and those sharpened on oiled stones.

Waterstones are another matter entirely. Both Japanese and synthetic waterstones require water in order to cut effectively. Japanese waterstones can be damaged if used dry and must be soaked thoroughly before use. Waterstones wear very quickly, revealing new layers of cutting abrasive as the swarf builds up and is washed away. That’s why they are so effective. There is always a new layer of sharp abrasive cutting away at the metal of your edge. By the way, “swarf” is one of those cool terms you get to toss around when you discuss sharpening. Swarf is the slurry of metal filings and stone grit that builds up as you sharpen. Throw that into your next ****tail party conversation and just watch the expressions of awe appear as people realize that you are a sharpening God.

I have used my coticule dry to finish on occasion, but just for a few final polishing passes, no more than 10 or 12. I've not noticed any adverse impact on the stone, however I have a limited number of razors compared to some and have only done this on razors that just don't quite measure up to where I want them. I follow up a dry coticule with 100 passes on canvas and leather. Makes for a smooth shave.