If I were Bart, I would like to see normalcy declared and the group moving on.
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If I were Bart, I would like to see normalcy declared and the group moving on.
I would like to see this thread talk about honing...................
Lynn
That is true. Extra care has to be taken to avoid being misinterpreted and also not insisting on having the last word. Knowing when to quit. There is an old song, I think it was by Kenny Rogers, about playing poker. It says you have to know when to hold them, when to fold them, when to walk away, and when to run. People would be well served to apply that to Internet debates that turn into arguments. Brings to mind an admonition that I was told when I was an Ironworker apprentice many years ago,"Don't overload your ass with your mouth".
I think this would be a good time for all concerned to HONE their ability to be tolerant of eachother, SHARPEN their concern for the feelings of others on the forum and print and PASTE these thoughts on the old refrigerator.
All those in favor.......... _____
I know that my HONING skill has definitely improved as a result of reading the thoughts of two SHARP guys like Lynn and Bart, not to mention all the other great posters on the forum and I don't want it to go away.
Hang in there, guys............. Thanks JERRY:)
_________________________
We're all in this together and we ain't gettin outta here alive.
I thought maybe we could discuss honing for a change...
I'm not sure if this belongs here or a new thread or an old thread but...
Is a double bevel actually weaker? I have barely played with it at all--really just enough to look at the effect under a microscope, so I don't have any actual experience with using a double bevel, but I don't understand why the edge should be weaker. The actual edge would be more obtuse and therefore should stronger. The shoulder between the first and second bevel would seem to be the point that would wear faster relative to the full face of a normal bevel but I would think that such shoulder wear would not have a significant impact on the edge.
For those of you who use a double bevel, does your edge dull faster?
The distance from the very edge to the shoulder of the bevel would be shorter than without the tape. I would think (but I have no proof) that this would cause the edge to be more fragile. It could also just be that I used a very soft blade for this experiment. One that I had not sharpened nor shaved with before, so it could just be that it is a particularly soft steel. I think I'll re-hone it without the tape, through a full course on the Shaptons and see if it still requires stropping during the shave.
Sheesh, the more I think about this the more I think you're right, Utopian... having the extra thickness further out should make it stronger..
On another note, I just got done honing three more blades on a different coticule using this method. This coticule is much faster than my other one, but usually doesn't finish out as well. For some reason, they do feel smoother than the finish I usually get from this stone. Could the extra angle added from the tape make a difference in the smoothness of the edge the stone gives?
The more I hone, the more questions I have, and the more I'm convinced I don't know anything... and I can prove it.
I have been wanting to ask about the double bevel (perhaps this isn't the thread to discuss it, but it is less of a hijack than it could be).
I would think that if the more obtuse bevel has advantages in the double bevel, why not just use the more obtuse angle from the beginning? As Utopian says, I would expect it to be stronger.
The concept or application of a double bevel, on razors is a pretty interesting subject to me...could we start a new thread on that for feedback?
There are some comments i remember reading, from various people, but nothing brought together in a single thread.
I can start one, but didnt want to steal your subject Utopian.
Thanks,
Mac
the double bevel is stronger
no ifs, ands, or buts
ask an engineer
I don't need a thread to tell me, and I don't intend to get into a ****ing match with anyone over what I know to be fact
I have been using them exclusively for a while now
ALSO
remember my thread about microchipping stainless?
that's right, double bevel is how I finished a edge from 4K -->Escher
try it with a single bevel if you have hours to waste
single bevels have now officially become a waste of my time
Excellent info, man, thanks. I certainly didn't mean to sound like I was getting into a ****ing match...I apologize...
Any chance I could get a link to your micro chipping stainless thread? I'm still struggling with stainless.
So when you do the double bevel... at what grit do you go from no tape to adding tape, and how many layers of tape do you use to do the second bevel?
Sorry for all the questions, but I'm bored of my old honing technique, and love to experiment, as well as find better ways than mine.
Again, no :argue: intended at all, and I *really* appreciate your information. :)
I also like the double bevel. I have a foreshortened version. It goes like this - when I get a shaveable edge with one piece of tape, I add another piece of tape, then 2 laps on the 8k, 5 or 6 laps on the escher or Naniwa 12k and strop. Seems to work most of the time....... Sometimes it seems necessary to polish on the Nakayama..... JERRY
it does not seem to dull faster
let's keep in mind that the actually cutting edge is going to be the same relative thickness
even though there is a change in angles, I doubt this will have the same effect in increasing edge strength as is the case in knives (to the same degree I mean)
for me the advantage is increased speed of honing
THIS IS A THEORY
it seems that the shoulder of the secondary bevel would be the primary wear point when stropping on pastes and not the edge
WHY is the edge the primary wear point when stropping?
because hanging strops aren't flat and there is always some curving around the blade
it may be a minute level of wrapping but we ARE talking about razors edges here and microns matter (just try and deny THAT) :)
I suspect that a double bevel would be easier to reset by virtue of the secondary shoulder wearing and thereby negating (to a point) the need to reset the primary bevel every time
WHAT DID I JUST SAY? :confused:
I said the bevel should wear more than the edge (if we are in agreement that stropping is the major contributor to edge rounding)
and that there will be less need to push the bevel back to get to the edge
since the edge was somewhat protected by the second shoulder
I'll edit the original pic
new test
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...40958878-1.jpg
#1 shoulder of normal bevel or primary shoulder (PS)
#2 secondary shoulder (SS) of double bevel (DB)
#3 forgot what I was trying to say here, will clarify later
#4 where this single bevel would reset to in order to attain a new edge
#5 the removal of the SS created by DB through the process of stropping and use of pastes
#6 example of how the DB will be easier to reset due to erosion of the SS
how am I doing people?
Ok, so, if we run with that idea, would that mean that guys who touch up double beveled razors with tape might just be creating a single more obtuse bevel - or they will eventually.
As I see it, you might be better off establishing a single bevel and then a double bevel when double beveled razors get dull.
It would take very, very few strokes to remove a double beveled shoulder, and that would keep your hone wear in line with how it should be with a single bevel as well.
no no Ron, I'm talking about the badge and not what you said
this has nothing to do with you
you clearly stated yourself not to be an expert on double bevels (is there such a thing even?)
no harm meant and I agree completely with what you are saying
I'm pointing at a problem with the badge
cool, going to look now (jeez if it's the same stuff I'll look like a thief)
I'm just making all of this up based on what I have seen and what I know of other things
for example
the SS can be seen to melt off if the blade is stropped on paste without tape so the DB becomes a single (sort of)
I deleted my response to what you wrote because you deleted what I was responding to and now you've gone and responded to my response to what you deleted.:roflmao
I took no offense. I don't care about the badge. If you care about what I think, you can check what I wrote about it in the original announcement about it. I don't want to re-hash it. I think if you re-read what I wrote about the double bevel just prior to my question about it, you'll see that I agree with your assertion about the double bevel. I see nothing in the diagram that suggests that a DB edge would weaker. It seems that it should be stronger.
yes
we are on the same page
I was taking issue with the " he is a mentor, therefore he is right" comment
I saw the original thread and really didn't want this to get off topic either
nor was I originally the one who did, rather the "he is a mentor" comment is to blame.
EDIT
I'll put it back :roflmao
I would be interested to see these diagrams where the razor is laying on the strop to be able to further visualize any of this.
The only empirical advantage I have ever been able to find with a double bevel as a result of taping is the protection of the spine, either to protect a Damascus pattern or wear. I have never been able to obtain a better shave or a longer lasting edge in any way shape or manner.
Thanks,
Lynn
thanks Lynn
without you my razors would still be dull, or gone worse yet
I spent hours and hours and hours never getting my first razor sharp
then I found this site
I was only theorizing with the whole first shoulder, second shoulder, edge thing based on staring through the scope
except for the part about the secondary shoulder melting when stropped on paste sans tape, that is for sure
this actually all ties in with your statements that "LESS STROKES IS BETTER"
I agree,and the DB refines the edge in a rapid manner allowing less strokes
the place I have really seen benefits was
1 with very slow stones (barber hones originally)
2 after establishing a bevel after restoration (push perfect edge faster)
3 finicky steel + poor hone choices (less strokes IS better)
I was trying out a particular hone the other day on an already shave ready razor.
Turns out the hone sucked and boogered the edge up.
since this was a single bevel blade I just threw on some tape and put a double bevel on it
no going back through the progression
I've done the same with stainless when going from a medium hone straight to a finish hone.
you isolate the edge and use less strokes
I suppose that in order to get benefit from having a shoulder, the secondary bevel would have to be short. TI guess the idea would be to take most of the pressure from the strop on the shoulder and kind of protect the edge that way. But, since we are talking very small distances here, I suspect there may not be any practical difference in the real world.
Great scientific post.