Edge still stroppable after 4 layers of tape?

Hey all,

So I have a boker razor that I assume used to be a 5/8", but is now a 4/8". I got it used a while ago, has a LOT of spine wear, and had been breadknifed. I could cut myself at all if I tried (and I tried!). I decided to try and get an edge on it. Without using tape the bevel became too wide, and upon closer inspection was very brittle and prone to micro-chipping. So I had to add tape. I ended up needing 4 layers of tape to get a narrow, sharp, and sturdy looking bevel. I shaved with it tonight, not the smoothest, but it was quite fine and shave-ready. I stropped it after I honed still leaving the tape off, but it's off now.

This isn't a razor that I plan to use regularly or anything, since I have great razors that I use daily. This was more of a challenge to get one heck of a worn and dull razor sharp. (which worked :D)

I know adding 1 layer of tape doesn't affect the angle that much, and the slack/give of the strop is enough to account for the angle difference. But does that still apply when 4 layers of tape where used to create the bevel?

Thanks for the replies!

in my estimation it will affect. you may will need to tape it before every strop. at least 2 layer 's of the tape.
hope this helps

I have an old wedge that I triple taped, and I give the strop some slack when stropping.

I figure that lets the actual bevel come in contact with the leather as it should be.

Also, I almost never use that razor due to that very uncertainty. :rolleyes:

If I use 2 pieces of tape or more when I hone, I use tape when I strop. I figured it couldn't hurt :shrug:

I won't answer your question as I prefer not to comment unless I actually know the answer, usually because I've done it. In this case I haven't. But I'll hazard a guess. First, some background theory. I do believe that outside of an extreme angle, honing quality should not be limited by bevel angles or the number of bevels created. Its the edge you shave off of and the edge that gets stropped, not the bevel angle. I think all this talk about number of bevels and bevel angles is overblown.

Back to your question, which I said I wouldn't answer, I'm convinced that you don't want to have to add tape everytime you strop. So I assume that your talking about just leaving the tape in place. I would start with either approach, leaving the tape on and the razor dry, or removing the tape completely and seeing how the stropping goes.

I'm going to guess, based on my philosophy that its the edge, not the bevel that is the issue, that your stropping will still be effective without the tape. That's my guess anyway.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I won't answer your question as I prefer not to comment unless I actually know the answer, usually because I've done it. In this case I haven't. But I'll hazard a guess. First, some background theory. I do believe that outside of an extreme angle, honing quality should not be limited by bevel angles or the number of bevels created. Its the edge you shave off of and the edge that gets stropped, not the bevel angle. I think all this talk about number of bevels and bevel angles is overblown.

Back to your question, which I said I wouldn't answer, I'm convinced that you don't want to have to add tape everytime you strop. So I assume that your talking about just leaving the tape in place. I would start with either approach, leaving the tape on and the razor dry, or removing the tape completely and seeing how the stropping goes.

I'm going to guess, based on my philosophy that its the edge, not the bevel that is the issue, that your stropping will still be effective without the tape. That's my guess anyway.

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I'm not sure anymore. I'm sitting in my hotel room with my 5/8 Wostenholm wedge & travel paddle strop. It's hard to say, but I'm not entirely certian the edge makes proper contact without the tape.

I would think that with a hanging strop, there wouldn't be much issue with getting the edge since there is some give.

Dave

Your right about that. Paddle strops are a completely different animal. As much as I hate to say it, the best approach with a paddle is to apply a little pressure. The compression on the leather will fix the bevel/edge/strop geometry issue.

I was speaking only of hanging strops.

time for a new razor :shrug:

I have had similar issues

I taped, honed, then removed the tape and used a more coarse hone to push the NO TAPE BEVEL very close to the cutting bevel

does that make sense?

two bevels

one for cutting, then build that wide bevel out to come real close

otherwise, I think it would be fine the way it is

I think I'm just going to put on a bit of tape next time I go to use it, then just leave the tape on. See how that goes! Just will have to be a bit careful drying the razor around the tape so no moisture is left behind.

I would say that the razor is still stropable in the normal sense with the tape removed. Maybe a slightly relaxed strop could effect better contact with the cutting edge. I will try it out and edit this post with the outcome.

PuFF

honed an old sheffield full hollow on a 1200 diamond hone followed by norton 4k then 8k, all this with 4 layers of insulation tape on the spine. Not shave sharp but pops hair easy. Blued the spine and the cutting edge and left to dry ready for stropping.
With the tape off and all contact faces blued, I put it over a stiff horse hide strop at normal strop tension and did 4 full laps. The spine and the cutting edge showed the blue being removed. Under 200x it showed the edge was being stropped right to the cutting edge and across the full bevel.
My strop tension may differ form others so this is by no means conclusive.

PuFF

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Originally Posted by PuFFaH

I would say that the razor is still stropable in the normal sense with the tape removed. Maybe a slightly relaxed strop could effect better contact with the cutting edge. I will try it out and edit this post with the outcome.

PuFF

honed an old sheffield full hollow on a 1200 diamond hone followed by norton 4k then 8k, all this with 4 layers of insulation tape on the spine. Not shave sharp but pops hair easy. Blued the spine and the cutting edge and left to dry ready for stropping.
With the tape off and all contact faces blued, I put it over a stiff horse hide strop at normal strop tension and did 4 full laps. The spine and the cutting edge showed the blue being removed. Under 200x it showed the edge was being stropped right to the cutting edge and across the full bevel.
My strop tension may differ form others so this is by no means conclusive.

PuFF

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I just did another worn razor that needed 3 layers of tape and had the same result. I didn't colour the edge to check contact, but I looked at the scratch pattern closely under magnification before and after stropping (with NO tape) and there was a notable difference along the entire bevel. Disclaimer: I am no scientist so this test was by no means definitive and conclusive.

So I think a hanging strop more than accounts for any differences honing with tape may pose, even with 3 or 4 layers it seems. :D

Let me tell my position on this 4 layers of taping. Please note this is just solely my opinion. it is wrong or right you need to find out. i think this is what happens when we tape back of the blade.
at first
when i said edge i mean cutting edge where two bevels meets
when i say bevel i mean shiny part of the blade close to the edge.

if we add 4 layers of the tape to back of the blade . Back of the blade will be thicker right(this is obvious)
by doing so we will shorten the bevel and great angle which is more then without tape.
Now if we strop taped blade without tape what we do?
stropping means we strop bevel of the blade cutting edge nether touches to strop right?
when we strop without tape we do put more pressure to strop the bevel right otherwise bevel will not touch the strop it will stay on the air. buy putting pressure we are bending the strop so much it touches not just bevel including the cutting edge. as a result instead of sharpening edge we dull it.
Now you are saying you did check edge under microscope and you ARE RIGHT WHAT YOU SAW WAS BEVEL.
YOU DID STROP BEVEL.
TO SEE effect of taped edge you need to see what happens to the cutting edge not bevel.
to check this You have to put blade 90 degree to the surface and check the cutting edge of the blade not the bevel.
now another easy way to test this is just do hht test and see after stropping your edge gets duller or sharper.
i have done my best to explain . i have make couple ugly pictures and will upload may they will make sense.
if anyone have better ideas please bring it on i will accept any criticism out there.
lastly sorry about the pictures they are extreme i just wanted to show what happens.good luck

I have stropped a razor that had four layers of tape on it for the final hone. I was experimenting with bevels. I did one layer at 1000 grit, two layers 4000, three at 8000, and four at 12000. I removed tape and stropped. Did it work? Yes. Was it worth it? NO. But I had a fun evening of experimentation.

I think the softness and texture of the leather combined the the slop of a hanging strop allow for stropping all the way to the edge.

Charlie

reading the later comments made me revisit the razor with a mind to strop it to shave sharp.
As I left the razor with only a 4 passes over a stiff horse strop, I decided to give it 40 more to see the effect. It did shave but really needed smoothing. I gave the razor 40 over a plain waxed linen then 60 over the same horse leather. Shave was more than adequate for a rushed hone job. No pulling, or irritation post shave. I would say that the edge improved by quite some way and if the honing was carried to the full extent I feel the edge would have been excellent. My test was carried out originally to test a theory not to produce a very sharp razor. I think my first outcome answered this and if I had carried the honing out with the idea of shaving with it, then I think that the resulting edge would have matched any made without tape.
I realise that an argument with detailed conclusions to the points of contact and I do not disagree to the logic of this theory. You have to remember though, this is a craft of the hand and with malleable materials resulting in outcome that differs from from rigid science approach. If it was a process so rigidly defined then we wouldn't need to test at any stage of the razors preparation ;)

PuFF

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Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

I think I'm just going to put on a bit of tape next time I go to use it, then just leave the tape on. See how that goes! Just will have to be a bit careful drying the razor around the tape so no moisture is left behind.

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I wouldn't go this route. The tape is bound to trap some moisture.

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Originally Posted by northpaw

I wouldn't go this route. The tape is bound to trap some moisture.

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I agree, even if I was really careful a bit of water would bound to be left in/around the tape somewhere.

I agree with hi_bud_gl in that stropping with no tape after using 4 layers would inevitably lead to a bit more pressure to get that strop right down to the edge.

It's true that you can't really see the cutting edge of the razor under magnification, so looking at the stropped bevel isn't really telling you the whole story.

I suppose the only way to know for sure is to actually try it! I'm selling the razor anyways, so perhaps the next owner can do a little experimentation. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

I agree with hi_bud_gl in that stropping with no tape after using 4 layers would inevitably lead to a bit more pressure to get that strop right down to the edge.

In reality, applying more pressure will flex the cutting edge away from the strop surface. This being less with a 1/4 hollow and more with a full hollow. I feel that the flex in a strop more than makes up for the tape being used in the honing process in the final edge produced. Under 200x mag on the edge I tested this against, there is strop polishing right to the cutting edge.

It's true that you can't really see the cutting edge of the razor under magnification, so looking at the stropped bevel isn't really telling you the whole story.

This is an incorrect statement. others on this site have posted magnification photos of cutting edges. Looking at a stropped bevel under magnification is very informative.

I suppose the only way to know for sure is to actually try it! I'm selling the razor anyways, so perhaps the next owner can do a little experimentation. :DYou are correct here when you say the only true test is a shave test.

PuFF

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Sorry my reply is in the quote txt in bold italics. PuFF