Pyramid (Scheme) Sharpening..Why it just might work

Hey guys,

I've been lurking around the straight razor forum and getting acclimated. I consider myself to be a good sharpener, and I know I like to analyze what exactly is happening when I sharpen. But sharpening my straight razor has always been a challenge for me.

I watched the video of Lynn sharpening his razor, and just as I was wondering why he would switch back and forth betwen the 4000 and 8000, he explained why, and said the edge is very "delicate" on a straight razor. That word stuck with me, and I immediately went to get my razor.

The explanation still didn't make sense to me, but as I was trying to visualize what was going on as I was sharpening, it hit me. The way stones work is by making scratches (especially Shaptons). Each successive grit level makes wider and more shallow grooves in the steel. So here's my theory on how and perhaps even why the pyramid sharpening works:

The coarser stone (whatever brand or grit) will make groves in the steel. By using that stone first, you end up with an edge that resembles peaks and valleys. The valleys are the part of the blade that you want as a finished product, but not the peaks. By then going to the finer grit, it reduces the peaks until, theoretically, they are even with the valleys from the coarser stone.

OK - this much is probably a given. However, this is where the term "delicate" started to really make sense.

If I use a Shapton stone (which I do) or any other, of any grit constantly, I would get the same version of the peaks and valleys descibed earlier from using the coarse stone, just at a different ratio. However, by making the peaks and valleys on the coarser grit (in this case, the second to last stone), and then smoothing them over with just a few passes on the finer grit (in this case, the final stone) WITHOUT establishing a new set of peaks a valleys, well... you should then have a very nice shave :D.

This method also seems to promote the very gradual approach to the thinnest possible edge without "going over", and removing unneccesary metal from the edge.

BTW, I used a Shapton Glass 16K and 30K. I didn't follow the pryamid per se, but I tried going between the 2 stones and I did notice a better finish on the blade than just using the 30K over and over. I didn't strop. I got a good shave, but it still wasn't quite what I am looking for, but it is definitely a step in the direction I want it to go.

I am going to take my blade back down to #2000 and work it back up using the pyramid "scheme". I think the overall edge has been rounded over too much from all the previous stroppings on the barber's strop. Unfortunately, I only shave once a week, so I will have to wait until next week to personally see if my theory is correct.

If anone is able to follow my babble, I would love to hear theories - either way. Of course if everyone else has already had this epiphany, and it was already discussed in a previous thread, I've just had it for myself. :)

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This method also seems to promote the very gradual approach to the thinnest possible edge without "going over", and removing unnecessary metal from the edge.

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This is it.Explains everything person needs.

Yeppers +1 with what Sham just said...

I always explain it like this.... "You want to sneak up on the edge"

interesting. so should I be pyramidding my 1k to 4k shapton routine? (after the 4k I go to coticule and escher so that's probably the end of the pyramidding for me).

I do find I'm doing a lot of laps on 1k and then a lot of laps on 4k - on shapton would pyramidding reduce my wear? I'd only heard it suggested for nortons before.

Try jointing the blade on the 30k shapton and then drawing the edge toward you very lightly 3x. You won't need to strop and the edge is awesome as a shaver.

There are many schools of thought about honing. I like to think of honing as a progressive process going from coarser to finer. Unlike yourself I haven't found that finer hones make a wider groove but instead a narrower groove as the abrasive particles are smaller (mesh size). As I move out to 8k, 16k, and 30k, the pressure on the edge gets lighter and lighter as the edge of the blade is getting thinner and thinner. I also use a side sharpening technique for that reason.

Howar

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interesting. so should I be pyramidding my 1k to 4k shapton routine? (after the 4k I go to coticule and escher so that's probably the end of the pyramidding for me).
 
I do find I'm doing a lot of laps on 1k and then a lot of laps on 4k - on shapton would pyramidding reduce my wear? I'd only heard it suggested for nortons before.

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I was wondering the very same thing - do I need a pyramid on the lower stones, or only the final 2? I would imagine only the final 2 or 3 stones, depending on how many you use.

On the 1K you want to make sure you get a burr because after the 2K, Shapton stones won't remove enough metal to really establish a new bevel. I think the pyramiding would work more effectively on anything after about #3000 grit, which is where polishing begins. But I'm still happy about my little "discovery" right now to think too much about that :y.

BTW, I forgot to say 2 things in my original post - 1st. Lynn's video was very well done, very informative, and easy to follow.:bow 2nd. I sharpen a lot of other knives, and I usually use a bit more force than what Lynn prescribed for the straight razor. I think lightening up also helps a lot to keep those unwanted grooves from forming, and gave me a better finish.

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Originally Posted by Howard

Try jointing the blade on the 30k shapton and then drawing the edge toward you very lightly 3x. You won't need to strop and the edge is awesome as a shaver.

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What is "jointing" the blade?

Welcome to SRP Tom. Thanks for the analytical approach to the pyramid technique. I learned using Lynn's DVD and the Norton 4/8 with that method. I have experimented with progressive honing and also with the side sharpening progressive grit method Howard mentioned.

I came to prefer the x stroke. I set a bevel using whatever is appropriate for that depending on the condition of the edge I am starting out with. Once the bevel is set with a coarser hone or with a 4k if it isn't too bad to begin with I will begin to sharpen the razor. If I am using synthetic hones I might use the Norton 4/8 pyramid or the Shapton Pro 5/8. One works as well as the other IME.

I then go to the Shap 12 or 15 depending. I may or may not go to the 30k pro. Sometimes I do and sometimes the 15 is good enough. Either way I don't pyramid on those higher grits. I also hone razors on natural stones such as Coticules and Eschers depending on my mood and or the razor. Following Lynn's lead to "have fun". :)

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Originally Posted by Utopian

What is "jointing" the blade?

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It is a very light breadknifing to remove any anomalies (microscopic) on the cutting edge. Harrelson does it on the DVD that Howard did where the side sharpening technique is demonstrated.

and what is side sharpening?

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

It is a very light breadknifing to remove any anomalies (microscopic) on the cutting edge. Harrelson does it on the DVD that Howard did where the side sharpening technique is demonstrated.

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Okay, thanks. I knew the technique, but never heard it called that.

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Originally Posted by loueedacat

and what is side sharpening?

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It is a technique that Harrelson Stanley of Shapton USA uses for plane irons. He adapted it to straight razors in a DVD put out by Howard of The Perfect Edge. I describe my limited experience with it in this post here.

Howard,

I was talking with Harrelson a couple of years ago and he said he got a microscope and looked at the scratches left by the different grits. He said that they got wider and shallower. I have never looked for myself.

I too believe that sharpening is progressive, especially with Shapton stones. I admit that I still am not totally convinced about the pyramid method, although I hold the strong belief that if it works, the ends justify the means.

The concepts of my personally discovery yesterday will need to be put to the test. As I said above, I need to adjust the pressure I use, as that can be causing unnecesary grooving.

I can think of a horrible mathematical explanation. If you add up a sequence of sine waves in the right way, you can approximate a square wave - i.e. flat top:

Attachment 25860

This is a bit like what you are doing when you are adding up rough and smooth scratch patterns. Not sure you can read too much into this - if you add them in the wrong proportions you end up with a sawtooth pattern instead. :rofl2:

Jimmy,

Thanks for the warm welcome to the forum. In my quest for knowledge, I have tried many different kinds of sharpening equipment. I am more of a sharpener than a knife user or maker, and I hope to have a wonderful sharing of knowledge experience here.

I have a Belgium Blue/cotecule dual stone that I bought from the best sharpening stones.com I actually went to the guy's house, he lives in NJ, and took my pick from a fresh batch he had just received.

This was my first natural stone, and I was impressed with the action of it, but I got a better result from the blue side than the yellow. It is my understanding that the blue is supposed to be coarser than the yellow. Is that right?

I didn't know Taiwan was near NJ. :)

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Originally Posted by Rajagra

I can think of a horrible mathematical explanation. If you add up a sequence of sine waves in the right way, you can approximate a square wave - i.e. flat top:

This is a bit like what you are doing when you are adding up rough and smooth scratch patterns. Not sure you can read too much into this - if you add them in the wrong proportions you end up with a sawtooth pattern instead. :rofl2:

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I LOVE it! :D I'm a math nerd, so I appreciate a good math analogy. :tu

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

Jimmy,

Thanks for the warm welcome to the forum. In my quest for knowledge, I have tried many different kinds of sharpening equipment. I am more of a sharpener than a knife user or maker, and I hope to have a wonderful sharing of knowledge experience here.

I have a Belgium Blue/cotecule dual stone that I bought from the best sharpening stones.com I actually went to the guy's house, he lives in NJ, and took my pick from a fresh batch he had just received.

This was my first natural stone, and I was impressed with the action of it, but I got a better result from the blue side than the yellow. It is my understanding that the blue is supposed to be coarser than the yellow. Is that right?

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Glad to see another hone aficionado coming to the forum, especially a coticule user. According to Bart, a forum member who has researched the coticule to the maximum, the garnet in the blue is larger than in the yellow. The blue with slurry will leave the edge sharper/keener than the yellow while the latter will polish the edge. Here is an SRP Wiki entry on the topic by Bart. Later, after further research he posted other threads on honing with the coticule and here is another, and here is one more. The last thread is on honing with the yellow only.

There was some controversy generated as a result of some of Bart's conclusions particularly regarding setting a bevel with a coticule. So you'll find differing opinions within the threads but there is a lot of good info in these threads and each of use can try the methods presented and draw our own conclusions.

I'm originally from NJ (but don't tell anyone), only about a 20+ hour commute from Taiwan!

Thanks for the links Jimmy! I like my Belgium stone, there is an undescribable connection between a natural stone and the person who owns it.

I will admit, that as unique as the stone is, I always get drawn back to my Shaptons because of the speed and consistency, and I don't like sharpening until a paste forms. I think that defeats the purpose of the stone itself. For straight razors, however, the more I am thinking about it the more it makes sense to use the paste for this application. That is one of the reasons why I joined this forum!

As I analyze what I do, I will be posting my rantings here and on my blog.

One thing that was mentioned is very important for us old guys who have been into knife collecting and sharpening for a long time and that's pressure!
When I first started honing I used way more pressure than I should have because I was used to sharpening knives for so many years. So, just a word for any other knife collectors don't press down let the blade and hone do the work it will save a lot of headaches that I went through at first.

I really think the information in this thread should be added to Setting The Bevel And Honing With The Norton 4/8 Pyramid - Straight Razor Place Wiki