Sharpening Experiment, anyone?

After some thinking and some private discussions with Jerry, all I know is that it is almost impossible to find the best stone/knife solution due to the differences between steel types, thickness of the spines, hardness of the steel, craftsmanship, and most varied- our tolerances to razor burn, and to the resistance of the blade - not to mention the type of hair on our faces!:(

But I am very interested in conducting an experiment, nonetheless. I want to buy some cheap ebay razors, and sharpen one each on the Nortons, my cotecule, King, Shapton Pros and Glass. The discuss the differences when sharpening, and when using. Unfortunately, this will probably only add to the confusion, and it will only serve to tell us which combo is best for cheap ebay knives!

BTW, if anyone has already done this, please let me know (it'll save me some time and money:)).

I've done something like that but with natural hones only. Here (lower part of the page)
The 5 blades were identical and the number of strokes as well.
Such a test to see what each hone can do is not too reliable
because you have a scratched surface that you want to get smoother.
Its like bending a horse shoe straight.
The better method would be using a hone on a pristine surface like a piece of a CD.

Anyway, cheap eBay blades can be very different.

Thanks Olivia.

I know what each sharpening medium can do, scratch wise. I am tryng to find out if the way these stones scratch is more beneficial to getting a better edge/shave. I had though about equal number of strokes, but I think there will be differences between the blades that will require each knife to just be sharpened with a different number of strokes. I don't want one medium to get a "lesser" mark because it may scratch slower than another.

The Scotland stone on your site is so beautiful BTW. :nj

Oh yes I love it, too. Thanks!

The differences in steel quality and grind can be quite big and affect your test a lot.
Are you looking to prove your Shaptons as an "egg laying wool milk swine" kind of hone?
I think that's already been done.
They pass! :)

I'm well aware of Shapton's capability - that's why I sell them! :D

In my quest to become a better sharpener, I am not limited to Shapton stones, but I always return to the Pros because they can do the job better and faster. As much as I sharpen everything else, straight razors have been like a hobby for me, and I have only ever sharpened my own.

By comparing the results of each type of stone, it adds to my knowledge and experience, and it will give me an indicator of what is better suited and why. You've probably noticed by now that I like to analyze sharpening.

It's not so much a test to see which is "best", but more of an exercise in what are the differences and similarities in the results, and how this information can help my customers, and people in general, to make better informed decisions when purchasing their own equipment.

Like I mentioned above, I know how each kind of stone works, and I have my theories already as to which will be better and why, but I need to know for myself. Maybe some other may want to know as well :w . Using one knife and sharpening it 3 times will not allow me to compare directly. Who knows, I might be pleasantly surprised....

P.S. I've put in a bid for 3 New York Selective blades. Anyone have any general comments about their quality?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jendeindustries

P.S. I've put in a bid for 3 New York Selective blades. Anyone have any general comments about their quality?

---

I hate to burst your bubble, but Selective is one of those brands to avoid.... Is it something like this? http://cgi.ebay.com/3-PCS-LOT-STRAIG...3A1%7C294%3A50

They're cheap, but can't really be sharpened properly (i.e. not tempered properly and won't hold an edge) from the accounts that I've read on here.

You should check out: Brands of Straight Razors to avoid - Straight Razor Place Wiki if you're going to buy on ebay. :)

This link to Badger & Blade shows a similar test. Maybe it will help in planning your own experiments:
5/8 Dovo Tortoise Special - 8-Ways…
Section 7 - 10, Dovo Tortoise Special Hone Comparison/Results.... - Badger & Blade

That is exactly the ebay knife I bid on! I'm not worried about the quality of the blades as much as about the journey. If nothing else, it will be a good lesson in futility:gth

The experiment with the dovo razors is pretty much what I had in mind. Joel made some very good observations about how the razors feel against the skin. This is something that I've been trying to answer.

I've done a fair amount of razor honing over the past 6 years and here are my general impressions. The Norton 4k8k is a good stone. It must be flattened prior to use to get the glaze off and to lap it flat. They just don't come flat. The coticules in 8K and the blue belgian in 4K will give superior finishes to any Norton. The DMT stones are aggressive eaters of steel but even the D8EE needs a finishing stone to follow as the diamonds just don't give a smooth edge at the micro level. The Shaptons at 16k and 30k will finish hone any razor I've thrown at them to an excellent finish and subsequent shave.

The problem I see with recommending a razor/hone combination is too many variables. Companies use different batches of steel at different times and heat treating recipes can change. Those are all proprietary secrets of the company. They don't post analyses of their steel or their heat treating protocols or even what they're using to quench (it matters!).

A steel quenched in water vs. brine vs. any of the quenching oils yields a different result.

This whole endeavor is full of variables and that's what makes it as much an art as a science in my opinion.

I say go for it. What do you have to lose? If you were in the US I'd let you sharpen up a bunch of my razors. :D Win - win situation for both of us. I don't have to spend time setting bevels and you get free test razors. :)

Leighton,

Thanks for the vote of confidence! Shipping to Taiwan isn't all that expensive, you know....:hmmm: I have reed knife customers that ship them here from all over the world. Shipping from NY is about $10, and there is also the Priority mail small international flat rate box, which is $12.95 for up to 4 lbs.

I would love to take you up on your offer, but only after I conduct my experiment with the cheapo razors. First, it will give me some practice on some brand new blades. Second, even if they don't last for a shave, I should at least be able to get them "sharp". Thirdly, I am very curious about the difference the directions of scratch marks make in a shave - I will be posting a thread asking that soon.

My ebay knives are on the way, and I am anxious to begin! Oddly, no one else bid on those razors.......:shrug:

I have conducted experiments like you are talking about with thousands of razors for quite some time and with virtually every stone or hone that has been introduced. Others have as well with maybe not as many razors, but there is a ton of information out there on all these stones already. Never hurts to repeat and some folks, particularly our HAD addicts really have fun with this.

Feel free to call me any time after the hip surgery to talk about all the fun.

Good luck,

Lynn

I have seen many comparisons between hones and most of them always try to create one stable factor, the number of strokes. The number of strokes on every hone is the same.

I've always thought that was the silliest way to compare hones I could ever think of. Always makes me wonder if the person doing the testing knows anything about hones or honing at all.

Its like, lets drive 10 cars at 55 mph and see which one is the fastest.

I guess I have been doing something similar in that I hone many different razors with various different combinations of hones. I haven't approached it from a scientific point of view. Just trying to learn to hone well and get a better shave. I tend to go for quality new and vintage razors though and no knives. Look forward to reading of your results. :tu

Lynn, I didn't know you were going in for hip surgery. Best of luck and I hope all goes well and you're back on your feet in no time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I have seen many comparisons between hones and most of them always try to create one stable factor, the number of strokes. The number of strokes on every hone is the same.

I've always thought that was the silliest way to compare hones I could ever think of. Always makes me wonder if the person doing the testing knows anything about hones or honing at all.

Its like, lets drive 10 cars at 55 mph and see which one is the fastest.

---

I like to shoot for the number of strokes on a hone Alan. Even though most times I get a ball park and the different hones produce a different amount of strokes, I like to see if I can get some consistency with each particular hone. Personal opinion only.

Lynn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I guess I have been doing something similar in that I hone many different razors with various different combinations of hones. I haven't approached it from a scientific point of view. Just trying to learn to hone well and get a better shave. I tend to go for quality new and vintage razors though and no knives. Look forward to reading of your results. :tu

Lynn, I didn't know you were going in for hip surgery. Best of luck and I hope all goes well and you're back on your feet in no time.

---

I missed this one. No knives for me either.

Yep on the hip. 11 AM tomorrow morning. Be out for about a week.

Have fun and thank you!

Lynn

Good luck Lynn!

Hope the new hip works better than the old one!



Back on topic,
While I can understand that different hones require different strokes, pun intended. The number of strokes is still another variable. By limiting the number of strokes, the experimenter can determine the agressiveness of the hone. However, I do agree that the testing should not end there. Once the agressiveness of the hone has been determined, the "final polish" ability of the hone should then be tested. The edge should be examined under microscope and pictures taken so that us amateurs may oooh and aahh at the pictures and make our unscientific determinations as to how "smooth" the edge looks. :D

In the end, it probably just comes down to personal preference. For the average person, the 12k requiring 3x as many strokes as the Shapton or whatever stone you want to compare it to, will work in the end. Whereas the person who hones more than one razor a week will definitely want something more agressive.

Actually, I'm sort of interested in which stones offer the best compromise between agressiveness and smoothness. I know, its probably like everything else in life, 3 options, choose two.

edit:
There is also only so much comparison that can be done between natural hones. They aren't exactly identical to begin with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I have seen many comparisons between hones and most of them always try to create one stable factor, the number of strokes. The number of strokes on every hone is the same.

I've always thought that was the silliest way to compare hones I could ever think of. Always makes me wonder if the person doing the testing knows anything about hones or honing at all.

Its like, lets drive 10 cars at 55 mph and see which one is the fastest.

---

That is so true!:rofl2::rofl2:

I have come to the conclusion that the answer to everything sharpening is "it depends".

There are so many variables, as mentioned in the posts thus far, and many more, including folklore (which includes curses, voodoo, amulets, potions, etc...), nationalities, the phase of the moon, wind speed and blood type (both of the user and sharpener).

And don't even get me started on political and religious affiliations vs. sharpening:nono:...

This is why I love the art of sharpening so much. Every tool requires it's own solution, and you can't get complacent, no matter how much you think you know. (I suppose I say that because I think I look like a sharpening fool when I post questions, blog entries that show my incompetence or want to do my little experiments)

BTW, I hope your procedure goes well, Lynn, and that you have a speedy recovery! It would be funny if you brought your own razor for them to shave the area....(maybe they have wireless in the hospital, too....):gl:

Joel on B&B has extensively written about his honing experiments, IIRC he bought 12 identical DOVOs and started honing them on various mainly natural hones.

Quote:

---

Joel on B&B has extensively written about his honing experiments, IIRC he bought 12 identical DOVOs and started honing them on various mainly natural hones.

---

Kees,

I checked that out before. It is an excellent, objective post, and it answered a lot of questions that I have. But, as a sharpener, nothing compares to what I will learn by doing it myself. I also have the luxury of choosing between Shapton pros and glass, which is really what I want to know. How will each blade respond, and is there one better suited for this specific task?

Thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jendeindustries

But I am very interested in conducting an experiment, nonetheless. I want to buy some cheap ebay razors, and sharpen one each on the Nortons, my cotecule, King, Shapton Pros and Glass. The discuss the differences when sharpening, and when using. Unfortunately, this will probably only add to the confusion, and it will only serve to tell us which combo is best for cheap ebay knives!

---

This will add 2 variables to the equation: different blades and different stones. If you wanna do it scientifically you need to change only one variable at a time. But that of course would mean you have to buy a number of similar razors which will be hard if you want to use decent and affordable razors.

I "won" 3 razors, so I will be using the Pro, Glass, on 2 of them, and the Nortons (up to 8K, then finishing with the cotecule.

Pros will be the 1k, 2k,5k, 8k, 15k, 30k
Glass will be the 1k, 2k, 4k, 8k, 16k, 30k
Norton will be 1k, 4k, 8k, cotecule (not using a slurry stone)

Again, I know very well what each medium does, I just want to see what happens to each blade as I sharpen it. I've been spending a lot of time with my razor on my glass stones this past 2 weeks, and I am anxious to take it to my pros.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jendeindustries

I "won" 3 razors, so I will be using the Pro, Glass, on 2 of them, and the Nortons (up to 8K, then finishing with the cotecule.

Pros will be the 1k, 2k,5k, 8k, 15k, 30k
Glass will be the 1k, 2k, 4k, 8k, 16k, 30k
Norton will be 1k, 4k, 8k, cotecule (not using a slurry stone)

Again, I know very well what each medium does, I just want to see what happens to each blade as I sharpen it. I've been spending a lot of time with my razor on my glass stones this past 2 weeks, and I am anxious to take it to my pros.

---

Wanna know how it's gonna turn out...........................:roflmao

Have fun,

Lynn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 0livia

I've done something like that but with natural hones only. Here (lower part of the page)
The 5 blades were identical and the number of strokes as well.
Such a test to see what each hone can do is not too reliable
because you have a scratched surface that you want to get smoother.
Its like bending a horse shoe straight.
The better method would be using a hone on a pristine surface like a piece of a CD.

Anyway, cheap eBay blades can be very different.

---

Wow! Absolutely beautiful natural stones and photos Olivia! Gave me goose bumps, really!
May i ask why those photos aren't in wiki?
Oh, an English translation, for us people, who think our language is the center of the universe, would be nice. lol

Thanks,
Mac

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lynn

Wanna know how it's gonna turn out...........................:roflmao

Have fun,

Lynn

---

I haven't gotten the razors yet, but here's what I think will happen: Based on the fact that these razors are to be avoided, I don't think I will get a shave quality edge. I will be able to get them "sharp", but the steel is going to be so soft that the edge will flex like a bendy straw if used. And/Or, the edge of the razor will flake off as it becomes so thin.

Am I close?:(

I'd guess you'll be getting edges with a lot of micro chips rather.

We should start an SRP pool... Take bets on how long it takes the noob to accept his failure:rofl2:

OK, so I tried to sharpen one of the blacklisted ebay razors.

I was able to get it "sharp" dispite the eneven spine. A little tricky to compensate for the suddenly different angle it caused, but doable. I evened out the edge to make it a more even triangle on the shapton pro 1k. Then I went to the 2K, and was getting some interesting feedback from the stone. By 5K, it was clear that the stone was still cutting, rather than "rubbing" the blade at this point. I have never felt that before, which told me that the blade was definitely too soft - softer than cheap SS kitchen knives - to hold a really refined edge.

I thought about abandoning the experiment, but wanted to be complete in my failure, just to be sure.:) I went to the 8K and then the 15K. Again, both stones felt like they were still cutting (it was actually kind of a satisfactory feeling, in a weird sort of way....) I didn't bother with the 30K.

By the end of the 15K, I was able to slice the tissue I used to clean the blade, but upon trying to shave some hairs off my arm, it required a raised angle, and it totally lacked that "mowing" effect that a "real" blade has. It was clear that such a refined edge on a soft steel would easily roll over with just one pass on facial hair.

But not all is lost, I will make remove the scales, pop the blade in a handle, sharpen it as a reed knife, and put it back up on ebay in order to regain some of my dignity:D.

On the positive side, I know that SR's can be shipped to Taiwan safely, and as long as the Post office is used rather than UPS, DHL, or Fed Ex, Customs will pretty much leave it alone.

I'm now ready for all of you to say "I told you so!" Thanks for everyone who still played along with me!:rock:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jendeindustries

On the positive side, I know that SR's can be shipped to Taiwan safely, and as long as the Post office is used rather than UPS, DHL, or Fed Ex, Customs will pretty much leave it alone.

---

However, they may have lost their temper in transit!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kees

However, they may have lost their temper in transit!

---

:roflmao:roflmao

Yes, That makes a lot of sense....the friction from the speedy delivery of the Taiwanese post man driving his motorcycle on the sidewalks must've created temperatures high enough to draw out the carbon :thinking: