Goofin with a double bevel

I tried something different with a double bevel on one of my beater razors last night. I set the bevel on a 1K (King) water stone then put on two layers of electrical tape and did 15 laps on my Chinese 12K (both stones were freshly lapped). The shave was adequate but did not glide through the hairs. I then did 10 laps on a leather hanger that is pasted with .5 SRD spray on diamond. The resulting shave was very good.

I sharpen my some of my wood working tools in a similar fashion (two step,two grits, two angles) and thought that it would be fun to try on a razor. If you do not mind a double bevel, give it a try some time when you need a break from regular honing.

Hanging with my honies

Charlie

1k - 12k chinese..., was that part of the experiment too? I guess a better question would be, what is your standard honing progression?

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Originally Posted by Del1r1um

1k - 12k chinese..., was that part of the experiment too? I guess a better question would be, what is your standard honing progression?

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1K to 12k is really wacky and out of the ordinary. I normally use a Norton 4/8 then Shapton or Chinese, or a coticule, or a baber hone. I just wanted to see if I could set the bevel on a coarse stone then put on a micro bevel on with a fine stone and see what the resulting shave would be like. I was just goofing around to see if it would work. I dont really think it is the way to go but it is a fun thing to try if you are bored.

Charlie

I suspected as much, just wanted to clarify... Thanks charlie, you are a mad scientist with razors for sure. Cool idea.

ps. I was so disappointed when I saw your blade at the SE gathering, because I was on webcam and didn't get to hold it... i love your work.

now the natural question would be - is there an improvement if the primary bevel is finished on a progressively finer hones, i.e. 1k, 4k, 8k, 12k.
You'll have to do redo the microbevel each time, but that's fine.

This sounds like a fun experiment and would be actually useful to clear few things about the shaving process.

I'm not surprised that you can make a jump from 1k to 12k because you are honing with the 12k at such a higher angle. When you add 2 layers of tape you only touch the VERY edge of the bevel to the 12k, so you are making an extremely narrow double bevel, so it wouldn't be hard to remove metal quickly at such an extreme angle. At least that's why it makes sense in my head. :)

Goofin with a double bevel

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I tried something different with a double bevel on one of my beater razors last night. I set the bevel on a 1K (King) water stone then put on two layers of electrical tape and did 15 laps on my Chinese 12K (both stones were freshly lapped). The shave was adequate but did not glide through the hairs. I then did 10 laps on a leather hanger that is pasted with .5 SRD spray on diamond. The resulting shave was very good.

I sharpen my some of my wood working tools in a similar fashion (two step,two grits, two angles) and thought that it would be fun to try on a razor. If you do not mind a double bevel, give it a try some time when you need a break from regular honing.

Hanging with my honies

Charlie

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Charlie,

Sounds like you are setting the stage for convex sharpening, which I am surprised, seems not to be a method here on SRP.:thinking:

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

Goofin with a double bevel


Charlie,

Sounds like you are setting the stage for convex sharpening, which I am surprised, seems not to be a method here on SRP.:thinking:

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Well it's not really a convex bevel since it's still made out of flat bevels. The convex bevel is formed of more a curved edge from what I understand. I drew a little picture of what I mean. And it is a method used for razors, see Tim Zowada's site: Two Bevel Honing

Dave,

I think that using the strop inadvertently acts as a convexing, or rounding method, which is why the bevel needs to be set again periodically.

By using the double bevel, stropping will wear down the "corner" from where the 2 bevels meet. Barber strops bow in the middle a lot more than straight strops, but even on straight strops, the material gives a little. That completes the rounding of the edge over time.

Convex vs. bevel sharpening is just as touchy on other knife forums as pyramid vs progressive are here :medvl:
The picture here is borrowed from a knife forum thread, and even though it is a single bevel, it illustrates what I'm trying to say - I hope! :D

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

Dave,

I think that using the strop inadvertently acts as a convexing, or rounding method, which is why the bevel needs to be set again periodically.

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Hmm...That does seem quite reasonable! I've never thought of that, but I guess the "corner" of where the 2 bevels meet would be the first place to wear. Thanks for the info!

P.S. I like your diagram a lot more than mine. :p

I think a pasted hanging strop does round the honed edges a little bit. I have razors that shave well that are sharpened on hones only, hones then pasted bench strops and hones then hanging pasted strops. I also have razors that I use coarse then fine hanging strops to sharpen. There are many ways to skin a cat. I enjoy trying different methods. All of the methods will get a razor sharp, I do not dwell much on what is happening at the edge, I just try a method and see how it shaves. Not every method works on every razor, every time, that is what makes it fun.

Charlie

I've used the same basic approach on cheap pocket knives. I would jump from setting a flattish bevel on a cheap hardware store wetstone, and then use my dad's Arkansas stones at a steeper angle to finish it.

I never found it to give the best edge, but I almost always found it to be the fasted way to a serviceable edge, especially on questionable blades.

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Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

I've used the same basic approach on cheap pocket knives. I would jump from setting a flattish bevel on a cheap hardware store wetstone, and then use my dad's Arkansas stones at a steeper angle to finish it.

I never found it to give the best edge, but I almost always found it to be the fasted way to a serviceable edge, especially on questionable blades.

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As much as the two sound similar, I think the technique of double bevel vs. convexing are a little different, at least in theory.

Double bevel, or micro bevel, chisel, or whatever... is supposed to give added support to an edge. It is used mainly with Japanese tools and knives, since the overall hardness of the steel is a little softer. You can see from both diagrams how robust the angle of a double bevel is.

Convexing is the rounding over of a single angle giving it a slightly more obtuse edge angle, but a thinner taper for the relief profile. In the knife world, this is often carried out on the entire blade, not just the bevel area -although I think it is mostly for aesthetics. This gives the edge better clearance when cutting vertically.

If I were making a razor into a knife, I would use the double bevel approach because the blade of the SR is so thin, I wouldn't need to thin out the relief, but I would need to bolster the strength of the edge. But for a meat cleaver or an axe, I use healthy angles, and end up at a 70-90 degree edge angle. Thinning out or rounding out the profile so you have better clearance when chopping things.

With jig sharpening, you have more control over a single or double bevel angle. With freehand sharpening, you will almost always get a convexed bevel. In fact, I do it on purpose most of the time for the cosmetic effect.