Double bevel by only adding one layer of tape (instead of two)

I'm at the point in my honing where I'm pretty good (nowhere near honemeister level), but I'm starting to experiment with different edges off different hones - you know, the fun part :D. I've given a lot of thought to the Zowada Double Bevel and I've got a question.

Disregarding whether or not it works well (I don't often hear TZ owners complaining), whether or not it is the best way to finish an edge, or whether or not you personally choose to use it...

Why is the secondary bevel created by adding two layers of tape after the initial bevel is set and sharpened? I would think that the best compromise between sharpness and edge longevity would come by sharpening the razor up to 8000 grit using one layer of tape, and then only adding one more layer of tape for the final light strokes on the finishing hone.

Any thoughts, guys?

The secondary bevel focuses the primary bevel. Straight razors are one primary bevel, 17 degrees. Most other knives have both. Reason that most other knives have both is so you can vary the angle of the primary bevel to adjust the aggressiveness of the cut. Tomatoes cut differently than steak and steak cuts differently than chicken.

By putting a secondary bevel on a razor it will allow you focus and adjust that angle so that the edge is "sharper" than it would be with just a primary bevel only.

JM2C

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Originally Posted by huntmol

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Why is the secondary bevel created by adding two layers of tape after the initial bevel is set and sharpened? I would think that the best compromise between sharpness and edge longevity would come by sharpening the razor up to 8000 grit using one layer of tape, and then only adding one more layer of tape for the final light strokes on the finishing hone.

Any thoughts, guys?

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How about this.
you set bevel and sharpen blade with 2 layers of the electric tape .when you want to (last stage) instead of adding 1 layer tape just take 1 layer of . Now what will be differences between this 2 actions?

i don't usually hone with tape (other than with my W&B wedges), but for kicks over the weekend, after honing my ERN ATOR with no tape, after which it shave good, I did an extra fifty laps with my escher with one layer of tape, and it made a huge difference.

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

How about this.
you set bevel and sharpen blade with 2 layers of the electric tape .when you want to (last stage) instead of adding 1 layer tape just take 1 layer of . Now what will be differences between this 2 actions?

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Taking one layer off would raise the true edge off the hone subjecting it to swarf impacts with the additional honing

Wow !!!! Really????????

Am I enlightened on this one...

Let me tell ya guys I have this property, it a little wet but hey, do you guys wanna buy it?????

This might sound all to simple but if you take a leather strop and put some .50 diamond paste on it you get about the same effect...

You're creating a stepped bevel by using stones instead of paste, same difference only the stones do it more exact...

The 17 degree bevel is also variable BTW....

Keep in mind if you truly believe that it gives you a better shave more power to ya...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Wow !!!! Really????????

Am I enlightened on this one...

Let me tell ya guys I have this property, it a little wet but hey, do you guys wanna buy it?????

This might sound all to simple but if you take a leather strop and put some .50 diamond paste on it you get about the same effect...

You're creating a stepped bevel by using stones instead of paste, same difference only the stones do it more exact...

The 17 degree bevel is also variable BTW....

Keep in mind if you truly believe that it gives you a better shave more power to ya...

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I don't understand what you are saying, and maybe I'm misreading your post. It sounds like you are saying that adding a layer of tape at the end before the final polishing achieves in a more exact way what stropping with diamond paste achieves. That sounds like a good thing.

Why would achieving a good result in a more exact way be something that would make us candidates to buy the brooklyn bridge?

IIRC, Bart was advocating using a double bevel with one layer of tape with his "one coticule honing" idea. He claimed that over all the tests he'd done sharpening razors on his coticules, his sharpest and best edges were achieved when he used one layer of tape to create a secondary bevel.

Thanks for all the responses so far, guys!
I wasn't really asking about individuals' taping preferences, or if double bevel honing is prefereable or effective, I was more asking about the explanation of the two layers of tape added to create the second bevel.

One thing I've heard from people who are skeptical of the double bevel is that they say it takes a good angle created by the spine plus one layer of tape, and makes it more obtuse by adding two layers of tape.

However, couldn't you get the best of both worlds by only adding one layer of tape on top of the layer of tape used to establish and sharpen the bevel? (instead of two)

Here's a diagram to show what I mean:
Sorry for the poor quality!

The edge on the left was honed w/ one layer of tape. Notice how the two edges on the right w/ different layers of tape create two different double bevels that have different cutting angles at the tip, possibly changing the amount of sharpness or edge durability.

(I'm not telling, I'm asking) :)

In answer yes you could achieve a great edge with 1 layer + 1 layer or 1 layer + 2 layers

Really what you are doing though in reality is creating a great edge because you are taking your time and talent and focusing on creating a great edge....

Does that make more sense of what I was saying ????

To make it real clear, it is "YOU", not all the tricks that is making a great edge....

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Really what you are doing though in reality is creating a great edge because you are taking your time and talent and focusing on creating a great edge....

Does that make more sense of what I was saying ????

To make it real clear, it is "YOU", not all the tricks that is making a great edge....

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Well it's pretty clear except for the "talent" part you are referring to. Pretty sure in my case there is none of that involved. :)

I do like the philosophy though that the path to honing righteousness is within, and that the tricks are just tricks. In fact, that might even justify using the matrix smiley (I've been trying to come up with something that justifies using the matrix smiley so work with me here!). :matrix:

Personally I don't do a double bevel. I do have one of Tim Zowada's razors and it shaves very nicely. I haven't had to touch it up yet. When I do I suppose I will follow his instructions and leave the bevel as is. I don't know anymore about it than the OP but it seems to me that the Zowada method might leave a stronger edge. In spite of that I will stick with my one layer of tape and no double bevel on all of my other razors.

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Originally Posted by loueedacat

In fact, that might even justify using the matrix smiley (I've been trying to come up with something that justifies using the matrix smiley so work with me here!). :matrix:

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haha damn you beat me to it, I've been trying to think of a way to fit the matrix smiley into a post! Oh, well, what other cool one could I use...

:D I suppose I do agree with JimmyHAD & gssixgun, and will say that in most situations, with most razors, using a double bevel is..
wait for it...
overkill.

:overkill:

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Originally Posted by huntmol

haha damn you beat me to it, I've been trying to think of a way to fit the matrix smiley into a post! Oh, well, what other cool one could I use...

:D I suppose I do agree with JimmyHAD & gssixgun, and will say that in most situations, with most razors, using a double bevel is..
wait for it...
overkill.

:overkill:

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Love it! That smiley is awesome, and you're use of it it's great is spot on:gwh:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Personally I don't do a double bevel. I do have one of Tim Zowada's razors and it shaves very nicely. I haven't had to touch it up yet. When I do I suppose I will follow his instructions and leave the bevel as is. I don't know anymore about it than the OP but it seems to me that the Zowada method might leave a stronger edge. In spite of that I will stick with my one layer of tape and no double bevel on all of my other razors.

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just out of curiosity, what do the zowada instructions say about how to "touch up." do you just go straight to three layers of tape, or do you start over with one and then do the three layers late in the process. Ie do you have to refresh both parts of the double bevel or just the second part.

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Originally Posted by huntmol

haha damn you beat me to it, I've been trying to think of a way to fit the matrix smiley into a post! Oh, well, what other cool one could I use...

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what we really need is a smiley with luke skywalker wearing that blinder helmet on while he tries to intercept the ray gun shots from the sphere thing with his life saber while Obi Wan tells him to "feel the force".

Now honing with blinder helmet on .... that is a nice visual for me honing.

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Originally Posted by loueedacat

just out of curiosity, what do the zowada instructions say about how to "touch up." do you just go straight to three layers of tape, or do you start over with one and then do the three layers late in the process. Ie do you have to refresh both parts of the double bevel or just the second part.

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As I said previously I've yet to touch mine up but when I do I will follow the instructions in this article by Tim Zowada here. Below is his section on the double bevel.

" 3a. Optional - Here I like to add two additional layers of tape, for a total of three. This increases the angle by about two degrees, making it easier to get a smooth edge with the final honing. Use 20 additional strokes with the Chinese 12,000. This is not considered the traditional way of doing things, but I like it. Otherwise skip to step 4 and stay with one layer of tape."

If you have a double bevel and want to keep it you always have to hone with at least 2 or more layers of tape depending on the specific double bevel you have. I have 2 Zowada's and as I recall (I may be wrong) you need 3 layers but the bevel Tim uses is a really minor double bevel and even he has said if you hone without tape with a 8K you will remove the double bevel very easily.

Personally I hate double bevels and have never found a double bevel to give a better shave. It just complicates things as far as I'm concerned. I've gone to a single bevel on both my Zowada's and I find no difference in shave quality.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

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Personally I hate double bevels and have never found a double bevel to give a better shave. It just complicates things as far as I'm concerned.
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+1, with equal results on knives; IME.

Hello Hunter!
On a new larger razor the steeper secondary(by adding the extra tape) bevel may not be a compromise in sharpness. It will allow you to indulge your time on a smaller bevel and end up being sharper with less time. Steeper bevels last longer too. I do this with larger wedges so I can really concentrate my efforts where it really counts. On smaller wedges I do exactly what you are asking except for spending time with 8000 stone on the primary. I was thinking of using the 8000 DMT on the primary bevel since it cuts faster than the norton 8000 but have not tried that yet and I doubt it would make a difference. Sometimes I start my secondary bevel with the 4000 very lightly and carefully.
On very hollow grinds I think the secondary bevel makes no sense sinse there is such a small bevel to begin with.
Mike

Any thoughts, guys?[/QUOTE

I've maintained the double bevel on my TZ. Mostly because it's the only razor that I have a double bevel on, and since it came that way, I just maintain it. I've used three layers of tape each time touching it up. I'm sure the razor would shave just as good with a single bevel.

No one has hit on the very very very very good reason of using a single layer of tape to set the initial bevel so as to.... protect the damascus pattern? IIRC that is the real reason. It doesn't matter if TZ honed his initial bevel with 1 layer of tape or not. He would simply compensate for it by changing the angle to whatever he wanted by adding steel and achieve the same effect. The tape is there to make sure the etch remains etched and is not ruined through hone wear.

As for the second bevel...thats a different question. I can understand the benefits in theory. However, in practice I'm not sure there would be a difference other than ease of final polish honing.

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Originally Posted by pjrage

IIRC, Bart was advocating using a double bevel with one layer of tape with his "one coticule honing" idea. He claimed that over all the tests he'd done sharpening razors on his coticules, his sharpest and best edges were achieved when he used one layer of tape to create a secondary bevel.

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Yep.

I gotta say, I started doing this as Bart suggested, but I found that it wasn't always nessercery. To begin with I was following the steps to the letter, I pretty quickly found out that it didn't really matter, once you have the basic idea down of honing, you can pretty much do what you want with it. It was very useful for me to begin with though.

Now I don't tape as a matter of course.

My advice is 'suck it and see'

I've been honing with one layer and then adding another to finish

the difference is that it takes 75% less time to finish the edge
I look at most razors I do under the scope once or twice during the finishing process because I have been experimenting with tape for finishing.

I've also gone from no tape to 2 layers on some blades
it works
is it better?
meh

only on real problem edges