Suggestions for honing razors prone to microchipping?

I've had enough now that I need a solution.

So far my solution has been 200 circles on the escher with slurry. :roflmao

I need some better ideas.

mostly this seems to be a stainless problem, but I just had it with a Japanese razor.
Not as bad, but it was happening.

I'm sure the first question will be my honing progression so I'll throw that in
DMT 600,
DMT 1200
Shapton 4K
8x2 Swaty (cuts a lot faster when it's long)
escher

I seemed to run into trouble with the Swaty, but I know it's a good stone
I don't think it was the stone, rather the steel
it wasn't overhoned, but wanted to chip like crazy

so what is the deal with microchipping?

first guess is diamond on really hard / possibly-probably untempered martensite. what is the condition?

New- it could take a little abrasion to remove an overly brittle edge metal from heat treating to get to the properly brittle stuff. Old-could be corrosion issue, (even if unseen) solution is the same.

Most of the old time smith worked by eye so they could screw up on an unfortunate day.

Stainless i have no idea or use for it :medvl:

One problem I see are the two DMT's
The other suspect is the Swaty, I am assuming this is just the extra-long Barbers hone????

Two razors that come to mind when you say chippy, The overly large Friodur and some of the Wacker's

I would never even consider using a DMT on either of these you just don't need that kind of cutting power...

One of the simplest things to do with chippy razors is to get to the higher grits faster... Every razor has a honing combo, the really good ones are pretty even, some like the lower and middle grits to get sharp and chippy ones tend to like the higher grits more...probably why you are getting there doing all the Escher work...

IIWY I would be looking at an 8k stone...

Hard brittle metals need soft hones. I think slurry causes microchipping when used with brittle steel. See it this way: every little slurry particle that slips underneath the edge exerts an additional force upwards on the cutting edge. If the metal is brittle that little particle can be enough to create a little microchip.

For my SS blades I go from the 4k Norton straight to the Escher and get excellent results. With my many years experience in metal working as a Tool and Die Maker and metallurgy I have found that when working a fine edge metal rubbing on metal causes chipping. Usual cause is the wheel, stone or lap is too hard and loaded with the metal that was removed. Stainless steel is a gummy material and loads hones quickly. Your Swatty is a very hard stone. Even my 8k Norton detracts from the edge on my SS blades.

Keep your hones clear of metal removed, mostly the Norton 4k and go straight to the Escher w/o slurry after the 4k.

The DMT will not breakdown when it gets loaded w/ metal so I would avoid that one also. I have a soft 1200 Japanese hone I use on SS when needed.

A loaded hone will also cause chipping on carbon blades.

With SS blades, less strokes possible is best.

Get the blade to cut hairs on the lowest grit hone you ues. All other hones are just polishing the bevel and refining the edge.

Good luck.

And a different stroke maybe.
Jimmy wrote a review about the video fom Howard Schechter and Harrelson Stanley performing an almost horizontal stroke and one of the effects of that stroke is helping to avoid microchipping.

I've had two razors last week that chipped and the fine hones alone did not do the trick. When I was almost done, I had a new chip in the edge.

One other approach is to use 3 layers of tape on the spine. This increases the angle and results in a thicker/stronger edge.

If you measure the blade, what is the blade width divided by the spine thickness? Is the number 4 or more? If so then seriously consider 3 layers of tape.

I do agree with staying away from diamond hones. They are harsh on an edge.

Just my humble opinion,:)

As far as hones loading up, I would think that hitting an 8k or whatever with lapping plate as often as necessary would solve that ? FWIW, Shapton makes the 12k pro (available at Japan Woodworker). The FAQ on the Shapton USA website mentions that the 12k is meant for stainless blades and it does seem to be soft as a slurry is quickly created by the blade as you hone. I've had good results with it.

Also FWIW, I have left well enough alone with a small chip that couldn't be seen with the naked eye but only with 30x in a S30V blade among a few others. Rather than reset the bevel and start honing that super tough steel all over again I stropped and shaved. Couldn't feel the chip and got a good and comfortable shave. For those who don't use magnification I would bet you'd be surprised at what some of your good shaving edges might look like under 30x or better. A case of what you don't know won't hurt you. :)

sorry about all the red, those are all my replies
I needed to give responses to specifics inside the quotes

Other than new stone selection, I think my question has been answered.
Hard stones cause chipping.
We all know silicon carbide can be hard on edges, I even pointed that out in the classifieds when I listed that Carbo 103.
" Not good for stainless or super hard chippy stuff"
thanks for the replies guys (and gals ;) )

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

One problem I see are the two DMT's
The other suspect is the Swaty, I am assuming this is just the extra-long Barbers hone????
YES, gives good results on almost everything (very very good) but there have been a couple...

I would never even consider using a DMT on either of these you just don't need that kind of cutting power...
I should have clarified that I didn't, started on the 4k glass.

and chippy ones tend to like the higher grits more...probably why you are getting there doing all the Escher work...
what I was thinking

IIWY I would be looking at an 8k stone...

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Originally Posted by Kees

Hard brittle metals need soft hones.

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do we feel that a Shapton 8K would fit this bill?
or something softer?

hmmm... maybe too many quotes?
I had to split it up I guess

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joed

For my SS blades I go from the 4k Norton straight to the Escher and get excellent results.
from the 4k shapton to the escher, but same idea
Even my 8k Norton detracts from the edge on my SS blades.

Get the blade to cut hairs on the lowest grit hone you ues. All other hones are just polishing the bevel and refining the edge.

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I was cutting with the escher and slurry, see next quote, you might find it helpful.

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Originally Posted by 0livia

And a different stroke maybe.
Jimmy wrote a review about the video fom Howard Schechter and Harrelson Stanley performing an almost horizontal stroke and one of the effects of that stroke is helping to avoid microchipping.

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I had come up with this solution myself and had been using a 25 degree angle and doing lots and lots of strokes on one side, then the other.
Japanese strokes maybe? Is that what the karate chop strokes are called?
Where is Howards video? (going to go look)

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

For those who don't use magnification I would bet you'd be surprised at what some of your good shaving edges might look like under 30x or better. A case of what you don't know won't hurt you.

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I've been meaning to start a thread about that.

I know some shaving edges look scary as hell, but shave really nice.
BUT
Do the perfect edges last more shaves between honing ??

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

One other approach is to use 3 layers of tape on the spine. This increases the angle and results in a thicker/stronger edge.

If you measure the blade, what is the blade width divided by the spine thickness? Is the number 4 or more? If so then seriously consider 3 layers of tape.

I do agree with staying away from diamond hones. They are harsh on an edge.

Just my humble opinion,:)

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Thanks Randy.

that stainless the other night just took a crap ton (that's about 2.5 regular tons for you non farm types) of laps on the Shapton

and thank you for the math on the tape
I like doing things in a scientific way

SO.............

is the 2k shapton ok for this particular task? (bevel setting without wreckin it)

do I need to just stick with the high grit stones?

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

is the 2k shapton ok for this particular task? (bevel setting without wreckin it)

do I need to just stick with the high grit stones?

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I can't guarantee that the 2k Shapton won't chip your particular razor's edge but I can say that I really like the way my Shapton professional 2k performs. Feels a lot smoother than the 1k pro and really get the edge ready for the next step IME. I would buy it again.

I was looking at glass

I'm sure the PRO is nice, but not so much with da price. LOL

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

I was looking at glass

I'm sure the PRO is nice, but not so much with da price. LOL

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I'm sure the glass is fine. I went with the pro series because 15mm of stone seemed more attractive to me than 5mm. When you read that the glass stones are 10mm that includes the glass. I imagine that 5mm of honing surface would last a lifetime anyhow.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I can't guarantee that the 2k Shapton won't chip your particular razor's edge

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bah ! just lost a big reply :gaah:

it wasn't my razor that was concerning me

I was very seriously considering Ron's route of offering free honing to establish myself as a honer.

but the other day someone came by with a stainless razor and it whooped my butt
right in front of everyone

the DMTs are going back
the 8K sucking so hard is why I was using the giant Swaty
of course it wasn't much better on stainless or heavy chippers

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

I was very seriously considering Ron's route of offering free honing to establish myself as a honer.

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I was thinking of doing that too but Sham is already doing it along with Ron and now Leighton so I figured that just to compete I would have to be the first to say I will pay the owner if I can hone their razor but then I decided to forget it. I may as well keep buying the ebay specials and I will break even. :roflmao

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

do we feel that a Shapton 8K would fit this bill?
or something softer?

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I do not have a Shapton 8K but judging by the hardness of the 1500 and 5K I would say get a soft coticule or Belgian blue instead. Someone suggested taking an Escher after the 4K Norton: not a bad thought either.

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

I've had enough now that I need a solution.

So far my solution has been 200 circles on the escher with slurry. :roflmao

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A lot has been said before me except this.
Greatwhitehuntr make 200 on Escher is unacceptable.
Escher is final touch stone not sharpener. Your blade should be almost shave ready condition before you go to Escher.
hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Greatwhitehuntr make 200 on Escher is unacceptable.
hope this helps.

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why you are thinking I am make this posting?
:roflmao

Your over thinking it...
But, yes a Shapton, will do fine I don't think it comes down to a brand of stone though... If it did I would go Naniwa if I had a lot of SS razors to do... (That is just a personal opinion so far on them)

Here is a trick OK, if you are having trouble getting a blade to pop on any stone, you have to change it up...

Remember the definition of insanity "Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome"

As you are honing, are you doing the same stroke??? whichever one???
Then toss in a different one.... I switch on every razor I showed this in NC...
If you were honing say 20 laps on the 8k (any 8k) Start with 4 laps straight down the hone then 1 X stroke then 4 straight then 1 X...
Spin the stone so you are honing on the other side now and go 4 X strokes and 1 straight then repeat 4 X 1 straight.... One, this creates a very, very even edge.... Two, you are changing the cutting angle to the stone which gives a very smooth edge...

I came up with this while buffing out pitting and stains on restores, I noticed that if you kept going in the exact same direction sometimes it was if the compound stopped cutting, I changed the direction and BAM!! I would get results , then I would go back and smooth it up.... This also is part of the theory of a pyramid honing technique...

So I started doing the exact same thing while honing mostly slight heel forward interchanged with true X strokes... You might try it out and see if you get the same results....

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

why you are thinking I am make this posting?
:roflmao

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i think we do have a little problem with our posting. let me explain what i am trying to say.
when someone asks for help and srp is so great everyone wants to help.As a result Person gets 10-15 advises and he is really gets confused.
That is why i did try single out the problem which i saw on your posting which no one has been mentioned before me.
I thought that will be simple and helpful.
instead of putting up my option how to sharpen and where is your mistakes etc which will confuse you more .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

i think we do have a little problem with our posting. let me explain what i am trying to say.
when someone asks for help and srp is so great everyone wants to help.As a result Person gets 10-15 advises and he is really gets confused.
That is why i did try single out the problem which i saw on your posting which no one has been mentioned before me.
I thought that will be simple and helpful.
instead of putting up my option how to sharpen and where is your mistakes etc which will confuse you more .

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I understood completely Sham.
I agree that this is wrong (using escher).
So I started a thread.

Remember the conversation in chat about how bad my Russian is?
Your English is still better than my Russian (not a word :ziplip: )

GLEN

I had been alternating the 25 degree strokes between heel-lead and toe-lead.

one of the major advantages of the scope is that you can see how many strokes it takes to erase the other scratches with a new direction
this way I wasn't wasting strokes

you CAN move the edge back on an escher (w/slurry), but it requires some thinking

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

A case of what you don't know won't hurt you. :)

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Precisely why I am yet to purchase a magnifier of any sort. No doubt I will eventually.