Getting to 11 with a hone

The Spinal Tap reference in the title of this thread best represents what I'm hoping to accomplish, with your helpful advice, when it comes to my honing skills.

In the past when I've sent razors off to be sharpened, they unfailingly come back as Elevens. Whereas when I do the best that I can do at home, I can get close, but my rank amateur status at honing becomes crystal clear.

I do have a very clear definition of what I mean by Eleven. When I hone at home, I'll finish on a Norton 8K, and then possibly a TI-pasted paddle strop, and then some plain vanilla workhorse stropping on Russian leather. At this stage I can pretty reliably get an edge that will do a BBS pass on the underside of my forearm, and which shaves my face nicely XTG and ATG -- a decent shave with no irritation.

But for me, an Eleven is tested by shaving my upper lip WTG only and eradicating all stubble -- can't feel a trace of texture with my lower lip. The razors honed by pros can nuke my upper lip without fail. My best efforts never quite make the grade.

Last thing I'll mention is that I do always use one layer of electrical tape on the Norton 8K -- mostly because the vast majority of my razors are obscenely virginal (oxymoron intentional). As an example, here's a photo of one W&B in my rotation that I've yet to tame into scarysharpness. This one has such a thick spine compared to its wafer thin blade -- it's practically a frameback in proportions.

I'm posting this in Advance Honing - because that's precisely the type of advice I need... how to crank this baby up to eleven (other than sending it out to the pros, wise guy).

Thanks,
M.

Why don't you just make ten be the sharpest number?
:D

Seriously, I am in a similar state to you, getting the razor sharp, but not as sharp as after Lynn has worked them. You might want to see if there is anyone with expertise in so cal who might let you look over their shoulder to see how they push it to 11.


Now that I think of it, any honemeisters in the Bay Area who like to teach novices?

I can pay in razors, beer, advanced homebrewing advice, or probably the least valuable, free dermatological advice? ha ha.

I understand what your getting at. It could be your lack of finishing stones or the stones you use. After I got my Nanis and the Shapton 16k, my edges are noticeably better. I wish I could say my honing improved and if you just keep working on it, you'll get the best edges possible no matter which stone you use, but IME its not the case. I believe the quality of the tool can influence the final product.

If that is the case, and I'm not saying it is. My suggestion would be to get a Nani 12k and some cerium or very good crox. That should get you a very very good edge.

It could also be your technique. I notice that the blade you are showing is a smiling blade. Those are pretty hard to hone. I use a 45* X stroke and/or rolling X. But I don't gather that that is the problem from your post. So moving on...

Yesterday I helped out another member who lives in AZ out with his honing. His edges were good, but he just couldn't get them to be exceptional. What I did was have him work on the Nani 8k and monitor the pressure he put. The great thing about the Nanis is that they give great feedback and you can feel exactly what your doing. You can also feel the results of lighter pressure and harder pressure. I can't stress enough that too much pressure can ruin an edge and light pressure makes the best edges. The goal is to really let the razor sit on the hone and have your hand guiding it rather than holding it to the stone. Does that make sense? I'm trying to analogize a feeling and its not easy.

I hope that helps.

The advice certainly does help. I'm with you 100% in terms of pressure - by the time a bevel's been set and I'm up to 8K, I'm just gliding with the lightest touch possible. But I have never gone beyond 8K -- and so an investment in a 12K might therefore be worthwhile.

It's comforting to know that this particular smiling blade has the reputation of being difficult; out of all of my razors this is the one I have the hardest time influencing. If you gave me a blind test between the razor now and after I'd done 25 more passes on 8K, I'm certain I couldn't tell the difference.

One follow-up. I have an old TI travel paddle strop that I use for pasting. It's always been treated with only the TI diamond paste. If I switch to CrO2, is there a simple method for "cleaning" the white gunk off the paddle before making the switch? Would this even be necessary?

- M.

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Why not just make the highest number a ten?

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Oh, wow. I thought I was going to fall off the couch. Anyway, I can't do anything about your equipment. It took me 4 years to learn how to hone and I'm still probably not at an 11 yet on most days.

You've got to hone using no pressure at all. That should be a given if you're in the advance honing section and you should have a perfected stroke that allows for that.

Next, remember that honing an edge is simply sculpting a perfect bevel in steel. That requires a repeatedly perfect stroke of the exact angle and length down the hone on each side perfectly symmetrical to the other. No, you can't go a half an inch more on one side on a few strokes. The bevel sides won't be balanced. Its like making a pyramid or a triangle and making one side shorter and then still expecting the whole thing to end in a tight point. It won't.

Here is how I do it . . .

So if your sitting at a 10 I would do some circular honing to get things set. Use a piece of paper and draw two lines on it to represent your turn points on the hone, put the paper under the hone, then start honing on the highest grit you have using this perfect x pattern stroke. Flip exactly over the lines. Never short of the line, and never long of the line. Right on the line. Don't just use any old x pattern, use a pattern that will ensure equal honing from point to heel. Make certain the scales are positioned so the lift the weight of the razor off the edge. If the scales are too far forward (closed) they will crush the edge with their weight on the stone. You could be using no pressure on the blade and the scales are scraping the edge into the hone like a damn bulldozer.

That'll take you to a 10.5 for now. The next step will scare you a bit but here goes.

Get your finger positioned under the shank and start using lifting pressure slightly on the razor as you complete the last few strokes. Use less than the weight of the blade. You're shooting for about 1/2 the weight of the blade. The strokes should feel light and airy. You have to keep the razor on the hone. You're just lifting it so the weight of the razor is not crashing down on the hone.

This will take practice so be patient. But this is one path to becoming really good at honing. Not just like, shaving edge good, but I mean like an expert. Use lots of strokes until the edge is the way you want it.

Oh, yea, and have fun.

I agree with Leighton about the pressure. I use a bit setting bevels if necessary but lighten up when I am sharpening on a 4/8 or the equivalent. You've mentioned what you're finishing on. What are you starting out on and what progression ? Heavysg pointed out in his video that most of the razors members have sent to him because they failed to get them sharp enough had inadequate bevels set. I'm not saying that is the problem in your case, just mentioning it as something to look at.

The Shapton USA site has a blurb somewhere that says that going to finer finishing stones before the razor is sharpened on the lower grits is not going to bring good results. An expert honer and forum member Randydance taught me to shave off of the 4/8 before I moved up in grit. This gives me an assurance that I have done what I needed to do and I have a sharp razor to take to the polishing stones.

I began to do this with all of the razors that I hone and I hone a fair amount. If I don't get the shave I want off of the 4/8 the first time I go back to it until I do. Only after I am getting a good shave will I go to something finer.

I use the pyramid method as recommended by Lynn. It isn't the only way to hone but it is the way that I have found to be most consistent and effective for me. If you haven't been using the pyramid you might give it a whirl.

BTW, I shave my whole face, no beard or mustache. That said my beard may not be as coarse as yours and that may be an issue.

"Lifting pressure" on the razor? Wow, that's something I've never attempted or heard mention of before. Definitely something I'm game to try. But more than anything, seasoned advice like that makes me realize that I and my thread need to be moved into an entirely new forum... INTERMEDIATE honing!

Thanks again for the practical advice -- I'm going to give it a spin this week.

- M.

Thanks for bringing this up mrgad, and for everyone's great advice. It will be a wonderful challenge, learning to turn the hone up to 11. if it was easy it would not be as much fun!
cheers,
Pete

+1 on lifting the blade

Looking at the pic of that blade, I don't think that it will ever make it to 11. In order to save you a tremendous amount of time, energy, and frustration, I will PM you my address and you can ship that miscreant to me for disposal. :)

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Originally Posted by kelbro

Looking at the pic of that blade, I don't think that it will ever make it to 11. In order to save you a tremendous amount of time, energy, and frustration, I will PM you my address and you can ship that miscreant to me for disposal.

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Thank you so much, Kelbro! You've arrived to save me at the precise moment I needed you. Please, though, instead of a PM, I am going to send you a money order to cash for me, as I am currently indisposed in Nigeria, where it's damn near impossible to find true badger hair. If you can procure true badger hair, or better yet, a true badger, I will send you forty-five million drachmas, half of the dowry I am to received from a local princess who insists I be clean-shaven before I receive payment. As soon as you send me the money order cash, and/or a badger, I will send you your millions, and the W&B.

How does maintenance of that pro edge work out for ya?

I ask because like you when I can shave my mustache without effort, I figure I've done a good enough job sharpening. Most of the time it comes down to stropping.

I suggest refreshing your edge on the 8.(just to be sure you have clean edge) when you are ready to shave start sets of 20 on the linen until it feels right on the 'stache. If you get to 100 probably time to reboot. 3 or 4 sets I reckon should get close.

finally finish with 20 or so laps on the leather-

Hi M,
Just a suggestion and it does not have anything to do with my ancient family secrets passed down from generation to generation and now in my head. Get a microscope and look at an 11 then look at your best efforts. This will give you more feedback literally in black and white. The more feedback you give yourself, the faster you will learn what works best and how to get there.
I think a facinating study would be to get ten of the very best honmiesters and categorize what they all have in common and what they do different to reach the same result. Also to identify what they do different to see if there is anything different in the final product.
I thought the project recently discussed regarding using only one cotecule stone to achieve everything from bevel set to finish shows just how radically different approaches to honing there are.
Mike

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Originally Posted by Kingfish

Hi M,
Get a microscope and look at an 11 then look at your best efforts. This will give you more feedback literally in black and white. The more feedback you give yourself, the faster you will learn what works best and how to get there.
I think a facinating study would be to get ten of the very best honmiesters and categorize what they all have in common and what they do different to reach the same result. Also to identify what they do different to see if there is anything different in the final product.

Mike

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Now that would be an experiment for the WIKI - Take a magnified picture of different honemiester's edges for comparison - not to say which is the best, since it is purely subjective - but to see what they are doing side by side in order to give a really nice cross section of what is "Honemister" quality.

I propose sending our blades to Leighton for photography since he seems to have a knack for getting good pics so far. Or, maybe someone here is a amateur/professional photographer with a magnification lens who could give back (or charge a nominal fee) with high quality professional pics....

I've got a guy here in Taiwan who takes some very good magnification pics for a good price, too.....:hmmm:

and which honemeister is going to subject themselves to such scrutiny?

I'm only a honester, but I have enough confidence in my abilities (knowing full well that there is still much to be learned).
:D

Now that we have access to this magnification and sharing technology, we should use it. Again - not to say whose is the best, but get an idea of what is being produced by those confident enough and able to successfully sharpen a razor blade. The trick is the consistency of the angles of the pictures and their magnification.