Modern Hones and Modern Straight Shaving

I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how modern hones have influenced changes in shaving practice and razor maintanance. For example, if anyone has read the Book on Standard Barbering even though that book is only a few decades old many things have changed. Synthetic stones were available but limited to carborundum and such. Coticules are mentioned as well as a German stone that sounds like an Escher but I am not really sure. If you read into the book, you might get the same impression I did about barbers of the time maintaining there razors but not doing any major work to set bevels beyond what an average barber hone could do. Then it goes on to say that if the barber hone could not do the job send the razor to a professional honemeister(they did not use the term honemeister). Apparently barbers were not even "honesters" and never reached the higher "Honemeister" level.
So what exactly were their bevels like compared to ones today that get refined to the level of a 16000 Shapton or the 30,000? Bevels are set on diamond stones that are generally as flat as you can get. There are so many choices and communication today it would be difficult to stay in the darkness of ignorance in a sharpening system that was not superior. Well, I could go on, but you get the idea. How have the newer hones changed the shave and the working end of the razor?
Mike

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_history:popcorn:

For a guy who has a couple razors and just shaves amd maintains his razors I don't think things have changed one bit. yes there are new materials in hones but once you adapt its still the same process. Most guys like that have one maybe two hones and thats it.

Now if your talking most of the shaving fiends here well, we're more into this like a hobby so we're always buying the latest gadget trying to get the max out our razors. truthfully most are on a continuum between the two ends.

As far as the old days you could take a razor to a barber who would hone it for you and they maintained their own razors however back then any knife shop could skillfully hone and redo bevels on razors and there were guys who went from shop to shop doing this kind of work also so if the barber didn't want to do it or had a blade with a damaged edge he had this option. Also remember if a barber wanted to he could buy a new razor for about a buck for a basic model.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

For a guy who has a couple razors and just shaves amd maintains his razors I don't think things have changed one bit. yes there are new materials in hones but once you adapt its still the same process. Most guys like that have one maybe two hones and thats it.

Now if your talking most of the shaving fiends here well, we're more into this like a hobby so we're always buying the latest gadget trying to get the max out our razors. truthfully most are on a continuum between the two ends.

As far as the old days you could take a razor to a barber who would hone it for you and they maintained their own razors however back then any knife shop could skillfully hone and redo bevels on razors and there were guys who went from shop to shop doing this kind of work also so if the barber didn't want to do it or had a blade with a damaged edge he had this option. Also remember if a barber wanted to he could buy a new razor for about a buck for a basic model.

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I guess Joe Average has a couple of razors, a strop and barber hone or pasted something of another to maintain. I agree not much different than the old advertizements that dealt with hones and strops. Start with a good bevel and hold on to it as long as possible with just the basics.
The barber himself, well how many barbershops even offer shaves and if they do how many are using feather razors or other disposable facimiles of the dear old straight that us fiends love.
That leaves "the shaving fiends here" at STP or other forums. Are we doing things that much different than the barbers, cutlers, etc.? I personally think we are shaving with a tool that has been refined at it's working end to the point that we need a new set of rules. Example, how many "fiends" get BBS without ingrown hairs and irritations? given a recent thread on this very subject it appears that a good percentage of SRPF do multiple passes and get away with it. I doubt our technique is better than those before us but I could be wrong. Anyway, thanks for your response.
Mike

Has anyone noticed the lack of skilled sharpeners nowadays? Yes, we have them concentrated on the SRP, but every neighborhood used to have a guy who would go around sharpening (and he didn't have a white van:))
My guess is barbers would use them once in a while to refresh a razor.

Hi Tom,
Click on the link and you can see that my sharpening skills, like yours branch out in other areas. The violin world is no where near as friendly as SRP. Yet there are similarities in that it is a field where inovation is not welcome and often used to keep down aspiring luthiers that want to find a nitch in a very limited market. So tools and methods remain for the most part unchanged among the classical makers. Tool steels are better, extending sharpening intervals, but all those gouges with different sweeps and planes of all sorts resemble what they used 300 years ago. I am a sharpening madman.
Mike


naplesnews.com/.../michael-carufe-savors-sweet-science-making-violins


http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2008/...aking-violins/

I think the average experienced barber, with fewer options, was able to produce a superior shave to what most of us do on a daily basis, mostly because of experience and a deeper understanding of what needs to happen.

I think a lot of guys today try to figure out why something is happening above the real discipline it takes to learn what needs to happen.

I do not believe that any modern convienence has changed the way shaving or barbering is best done . . . although I think many of us here think that it has.

I've had great success focusing on the way its supposed to be done, to the lament of many others.

To me, the basic process of stone, strop, and shave hasn't changed much . . .

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Originally Posted by Kingfish

I am a sharpening madman.

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I resemble that remark.:) Kidding aside, I know that some barbers were quite adept at honing at least back in the 1980s in North NJ around the Newark area. The ones I knew used Belgian coticules with lather from their lather king machines as a vehicle.

With the decline of true old school barber shops and the daily barber shop shave that went with it so there has been a decline in honing skill with today's barbers. In those days with no A.I.D.S. epidemic the replaceable blade shaver wasn't widely used by the old timers.

Now if you can get a shave in a shop chances are it will be with one of those and probably required by health dept regulations. Back in the lamented old days honing was a necessary skill for those guys.

Hi Mike. I was just trying to be smart.:boohoo:

My point though is that things have not actually changed, they are just different.

Look at all the stuff that came out at the end of the 19 beginning of 20th c.
I see most of that as stuff to sell, like slap chops, ginsu, and Fusion.



....looks like AFD has covered it;)

"I've had great success focusing on the way its supposed to be done, to the lament of many others. " heehee what?

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I think the average experienced barber, with fewer options, was able to produce a superior shave to what most of us do on a daily basis, mostly because of experience and a deeper understanding of what needs to happen.

To me, the basic process of stone, strop, and shave hasn't changed much . . .

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Jimmy, I found out quickly you were a sharpening madman. Your type can't hide. :) (you know, the edgy type)
You are right Kevin AFD effortlessly said what I struggled to get at. I am much better with my hands than with words. But even he admits that there were fewer options. Do any of our options make our bevels any better? (and please entertain the possibilty that some of us are able to hone as well as they did)
Let me give you a case in point. Prepare a bevel as you normaly do, leave the edge at the coticule ar barber hone level. Strop is OK, no pastes allowed. How good is the shave. If you know what you are doing, and again please at least entertain that we do, you can get a superlative shave fit for royalty.
Lets prepare another blade, same manufacturer etc. You know keep the variables down. And please don't make the mistake that having these extreme hones makes the average bloke able to use them to their potential. Those types of madmen are few and far bettween, and I am not claiming to be one or not to be one. This level of honing is where sharing stops and voodoo begins. We can use a microscope for this one as we take it all the way, down below scratches that we can see under magnification as we are using a 30000 Shapton or some .3 micron lapping film. Or bevel edge has no visible jagged edge, it look like it was cut with a lazer.Now the shave.. Get the idea, maybe, my communication power is limited. For me, i am getting closer more comfortable shaves with the more refined edge and able to close shave almost every day. I don't think close shaving was well tolerated then as much as now, but I don't know that for fact.
Mike

I cannot actually say what .3µm film or 30k shapton feels like. or pastes really.

Options do not change the necessity of what needs doing.

Oldengaerde provided us with access to a terrific resource A Treatise on Razors. Second addition 1799. which discusses using the microscope for examining the edge. they had powders and pastes.

My expectation is to have a completely easy going, smooth feeling shave, with no irritation. I usually manage as does most everyone who sticks with it for a month or 2, 3.

After that I assume further improvement depends on attention to detail, experimentation to mesh personal touch with individual equipment.

I can say more but let's see where this leads

I think, back in the day most men used razors that were not the sharpest and suffered through mediocre, uncomfortable shaves and that's why Mr Gillette was able to convince men to abandon the straight in droves.

Also consider that most guys in this day refuse to accept the fact barbers in the day were able to give perfect shaves to their customers. Guys today have no real experience with true barbers who learned the craft and practiced it numerous times every day. They seem to believe no one can shave them as good as they can do themselves. I'm still old enough to remember seeing barbers shave their customers and getting a professional shave was a real treat for the average joe.

There is something to be said for modern hone technology - Take Shapton for example (what else?:)) When I first moved up to Shaptons, I was still very green, but those stones made what little good that I did do, better. In other words, the stones instantly made me a better sharpener. (I can see a good ribbing coming from that remark!:mace:) Having a small amount of success really helps propel the sharpening bug forward.

But there is also no substitute for experience, and I loved the thrill of my old barber Tony (the one with the wondering eye and the heavy breathing who took a few minutes to get into position) giving a real man's shave. I dare say, though, that with modern hone technology and my sharpening skills, my shaves are better now than I remember back in NJ. Yes, Tony's shaving skillsmay always be better than mine, but there is something to be said for progress in the honing area - after all, Tony was a real barber, not a honemiester.

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

There is something to be said for modern hone technology - Take Shapton for example (what else?:)) When I first moved up to Shaptons, I was still very green, but those stones made what little good that I did do, better. In other words, the stones instantly made me a better sharpener. (I can see a good ribbing coming from that remark!:mace:) Having a small amount of success really helps propel the sharpening bug forward.

But there is also no substitute for experience, and I loved the thrill of my old barber Tony (the one with the wondering eye and the heavy breathing who took a few minutes to get into position) giving a real man's shave. I dare say, though, that with modern hone technology and my sharpening skills, my shaves are better now than I remember back in NJ. Yes, Tony's shaving skillsmay always be better than mine, but there is something to be said for progress in the honing area - after all, Tony was a real barber, not a honemiester.

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Again, you guys are hitting the points I just don't have the verbal skills to communicate. Tony is a real barber, would it not be a good experiment to give him a blade prepared with modern hone technology to see what he thinks and his patrons)? After roughing the bevel, shaptons take refined edges to the next level. From my experience there flatness and hardness continue not only to polish but the are further refineing the bevels making them flatter than any other polishing stone I have worked with. Shapton no offense really should do a better job explainig how the hard non loading technologie they have engineered are doing thing to bevels that IMHO may be totaly new level.
Having said that, if you can't drive them to there potential, you won't ever figure that out and if your style is way to loose that same high performance material will kill and edge very quickly as they cut faster that anything other than diamonds.
I realize this stuff is overkill for the average sharpener and I don't go to my limit until i sharpen a Straight. I have turning tools that go from the Tormek to a barber brush. (I just tinker, but turning is a blast) My plane blades and gouges will all go up to 8000. Except for my Low Angle Lie Nielson Jack. I might put the secondary bevel on that monsterously thick blade on a 16000 Shapton, but totaly not needed other than it gives me more time to play with my plane. I can't imagine what I would do if I got my hands on an old Norris infill smoother.
Razors for me have been an exploration in just what is possible not just pragmatic. Pure joy to sharpening madmen.
On another side note, if you have a daughter and she is dating, make sure you share just how sharp straights can get. It is good to have a little wild eye look about you while you talk to them.
Mike

and yet, they are flawed.

One of the things that happened to me is I quit paying lip service to flattening and started keeping flat. That came form Harrelson.

In the past there was mis-information just as there is today. We have more and easier access to better information. But it still boils down to who you know and what you choose to believe.
Just the other day I heard someone say 150 years ago they did not worry about flatness as much. well. maybe but it depends on what level of work you are thinking of.

Further, what is described in a book is for novices- the voodoo of masters is lost on the newbie. Most of us know there is no magic in the stone.(the magus always knew that but wasnt telling) having good tools helps a lot but not as much as usable knowledge and skill.

a good natural stone is far superior to any man made i have tried. below 8000 anyway.;)

I think we are in agreement. Flat is secondary at certain levels especialy when we are hone blades that are not flat by design or by warping. I started my sharpening life mostly freehand with gouges and convex soled planes. but those skills are for the practical minded, not the maniac looking for how close to perfection on the end of a straight. In the begining of my quest, I thought straights would be so easy. After all the spine is a built in hone jig, nothing freehand about it, what skill? WRONG. I was so so out of my league because I had no idea what sharp as a razor meant. It was all about the level of sharp, the holy grail of all edges ever made. Even the most exotic swords we read about in legends and cultures built around them did not need to be as sharp as a razor. As long as we get closer, that is called progress.
What type of naturals are you considering in the up to 8000 range. They are quite costly if your tastes leads you that way. i have always been more utilitarian about bevel creation in the lower grits, but I agree, there is much excitement when gettin past the 4000 range. But I must admit in the lower grits I have power options, DMTs, Norton water stones and other synth which a place in high regard. For the most part the only time I use oil stone are slips for incannel bevels as they are very hard and do the basic job without loosing there shape.
Mike
Mike

being a bit of a nutter I am prone to falling off the edge.

because things are different we have much that is better. If it is easy to lay hands on, and cheap, and functions well... that is enough to make it better.

...i was trying to say that below 8000 man-made stones are what I choose.

You could get by for life with 2 razors, a strop and a coticule.

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

You could get by for life with 2 razors, a strop and a coticule.

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You could, but for the average honer i don't think it would have a place here in Advanced H. However, there are extrodinary honers that are doing advanced things with coticules. I was very facinated by the chap who took the time to do a study on one coticule honing from roughing in bevel to polish. I will look for it later.
Mike
This was the topic, hopefully it will link. If not later, have to tend to spousal unit for advanced duties. Off.

ONE COTICULE HONING

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Originally Posted by kevint

being a bit of a nutter I am prone to falling off the edge.

because things are different we have much that is better. If it is easy to lay hands on, and cheap, and functions well... that is enough to make it better.

...i was trying to say that below 8000 man-made stones are what I choose.

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Answering but not answering. You are a complex nutter to figure out.

I am unsure of the question now.

I'll be glad to try again.

I like to imagine two kinds of flat, there is straight line and meniscus- and negative meniscus:confused::beer2:

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Originally Posted by kevint

I am unsure of the question now.

I'll be glad to try again.

I like to imagine two kinds of flat, there is straight line and meniscus- and negative meniscus:confused::beer2:

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That part I understood.I don't think we want to go there now lest we get off topic and talk methods, hone widths and different stroke etc.
I was just wondering what natural hones currently are courting your admiration that were in the 8000 neighborhood.
Mike

Hideriyama Uroko. makes slurry quick; so a little soft,

I have not compared scratch patterns, but the edge feels like 8000.

you can get them at japantool or japan-tool.

I'm not so sure that the newer equipment and media have changed the world as much as the ability to communicate globally and compare notes with people all over the world, both expert and novice. This sharing of experiences in an environment like this has exponentially increased the results people are having just within the last 5 years.

Just an old guys view.......:)

Lynn

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I'm not so sure that the newer equipment and media have changed the world as much as the ability to communicate globally and compare notes with people all over the world, both expert and novice. This sharing of experiences in an environment like this has exponentially increased the results people are having just within the last 5 years.

Just an old guys view.......:)

Lynn

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Ya' know Lynn, as I write this from Taiwan, you are absolutely correct!

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I'm not so sure that the newer equipment and media have changed the world as much as the ability to communicate globally and compare notes with people all over the world, both expert and novice. This sharing of experiences in an environment like this has exponentially increased the results people are having just within the last 5 years.

Just an old guys view.......:)

Lynn

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There is a parallel universe to Straight razors in other types of forums that have had similar evolution in communication. In the the world of Luthierie, it stops abruptly when proprietary information is not given out freely. Luckily, the bigest secret to LuthierieIMHO is the age old God given talent that we have and the work ethic to let it all out no matter what the cost in time and sweat.
Still, this is a forum that is not just warm and fuzzy and freer in sharing at all levels of shavers, latherers, and honers. It also has a certain edge to it:)(Sorry, could'nt resist, luckily their are enough of us madmen to appreciate it?) This forum from my experience is an exeption to the rule and that is why I predict that it will not level off any time soon, and it's biggest days wil continue the next day, the next month, the next year and the following generations. It has a momentum, palpable and larger than Lynn and larger than life. But all fire start with just a spark(Lynn) and rage when stoked.
With that, I am about to start a new thread "Life on the Edge, What is Different and What is the Same". I am not going to start it with my own bias, but of a passing comment that Leonard Lee makes when he reviews a study in chip formation by an Australian, Dr. William Mckenzie. So if you have Lee's book, take it out and please turn to page 233. :beer2:
Michael