Thoughts on "Less is more." in honing

When I first came around to SRP and got into honing with a passion I read everything on the forum that I could find on the topic. I was soon confused by what appeared to me to be contradictory information. On the one hand I read Lynn's admonition that 'Less is more'. On the other some members talked about hundreds of strokes and in particular taking the scratch pattern from the previous grit completely off before moving on to the next grit.

As time passed and I acquired some razors honed by Lynn and other honmiesters examination under magnification revealed that there was still a scratch pattern and in some razors the previous patterns blended with the others. None were scratch free. All shaved superlatively. I had been feeling my way learning to hone right along and finally came to understand the less is more theory.

Once the bevel is set and the razor passes the TNT whether moving to a pyramid with synthetics or progressive with naturals I use the TPT and occasional examination under magnification to judge my progress. When I feel the edge is there I move up the grit ladder. Once the edge is as keen as a Norton 4/8 or the equivalent will get it I strop and test shave. If the edge is satisfactory I will move to higher grit finishing hones. If not back to the 4/8 or the equivalent until it is.

I pay little attention to removing the scratches. Only the quality of the edge based on the TPT and later if it will 'pop' hair off of my forearm. I don't knock those who want to polish their edges to a super smooth bevel but I don't find it necessary for a smooth and bbs shave and I think it probably leaves a more fragile edge as well as being a waste of time and metal. Just IMHO, as always, YMMV.

Nice post,Jimmy.I had been coming to this realization lately and now seeing it in your words makes it even more realistic.Thanks.

Although I'm at the point where you started, I appreciate the clear easy to understand way you've put this. I've been trying to come to an understanding of the different schools of thought on here, and now this has given me an Aha moment. I haven't honed anything myself, but just reading different posts this makes sense to me. Thank you!

This is a great post, Jimmy, thanks.

I myself have been looking at the scratch patterns, and have been trying to eliminate them as best I could, and I think I have a defensible reason why: it is a clear, visible and objective way to measure honing for a newbie honer like myself.

I understand that it isn't necessary and that as honers improve then the TNT, TPT and, finally, the shave test give a better indication of shave readiness. But until I get to the point where my judgment from the TPT starts to reach point where I am confident in moving to the shave test, scratch pattern elimination is giving me some pretty darned good edges.

I fully expect that as I get better and more experienced (to flirt with redundancy), then scratch patterns will become less important to my honing--I look forward to that day. However, learning to hone is a process and in many ways it can't be taught by anything but experience. At the moment, I'm not confident enough in my TPT, or even my understanding of the shave test, to rule out scratch pattern elimination.

It'll come, I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by JimR

This is a great post, Jimmy, thanks.

I myself have been looking at the scratch patterns, and have been trying to eliminate them as best I could, and I think I have a defensible reason why: it is a clear, visible and objective way to measure honing for a newbie honer like myself.

I understand that it isn't necessary and that as honers improve then the TNT, TPT and, finally, the shave test give a better indication of shave readiness. But until I get to the point where my judgment from the TPT starts to reach point where I am confident in moving to the shave test, scratch pattern elimination is giving me some pretty darned good edges.

I fully expect that as I get better and more experienced (to flirt with redundancy), then scratch patterns will become less important to my honing--I look forward to that day. However, learning to hone is a process and in many ways it can't be taught by anything but experience. At the moment, I'm not confident enough in my TPT, or even my understanding of the shave test, to rule out scratch pattern elimination.

It'll come, I'm sure.

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My post on less is more only relates my experience of learning on this forum from the many different voices that were suggesting what seemed like conflicting information to my ear and how I came to understand the minimalist point of view. I first came to straight razor shaving in the mid 1980s. I had already started collecting vintage pieces at flea markets and antique stores. I became close friends with a pro barber who was also a collector although he didn't use them outside of his vocation.

A fellow that worked for him was in his seventies cutting hair for half a century and I got a Swaty, a coticule and a primer lesson in honing from him. Weight of the blade and only a few strokes was the mantra. Well this was all well and good if it worked but it didn't.... at least not for me. I stuck with the straight shaving for a relatively short time. Probably until my shaving razors got too dull to use, I really don't recall.

I never was able to get them sharp or keep them sharp because of my lack of imagination at the time. If I had ignored the "less is more" philosophy given by the old barber and used a bit more than the weight of the blade, more strokes than the prescribed 4 or 5...... who knows maybe it would have worked for me. What happened was that I gave it up and 25 years later ended up at SRP and was confronted with a few different schools of thought on honing razors. I was fortunate in having a former forum member and honemiester living within thirty miles of me.

He invited me to his house and I went there a few times for what turned out to be lessons in bevel setting, sharpening and finishing his way. This was a hybrid of the methods talked about on SRP and it worked for me. It wasn't the less is more though and that was fine with me. So I learned to hone and I was successful in getting the edges shave ready. My natural tendency to collecting went to razor acquisition and a steady stream of blades came in for me to practice on.

As time went on and I also began buying various hones and trying different methods of using them that I had read about on the forum I began to understand what Lynn and that old barber were saying in practice rather than in theory. One of the biggest helps to me in getting that understanding was buying razors that Lynn, Don, Tim Zowada and other honemiesters had honed and examining them under magnification. There was a scratch pattern and some were 'smoother' than others but all of them had a scratch pattern under magnification.

Some had those deeper scratches randomly interspersed within the pattern but they all shaved me very well. My point in mentioning this is not to attack the concept of honing until your scratch pattern is as smooth as possible. That is fine if it is what you want to do. I had two problems. The first was the no pressure/few strokes was inexplicable to me and the second was Lynn posting that on most days he honed between twenty and thirty razors. Most of the razors I had bought came from ebay and had to have the bevel reset and would take from forty five minutes to an hour using the hybrid method that I had learned. Some took considerably longer. So Lynn knew something that I didn't know and I wanted to find out what that was.

Through studying the methods that Lynn wrote about and through a few times speaking to him directly I began relying on the TPT and stopped worrying about scratch patterns and focused on sharpening and the shave test. I came to the point where I realized that once the bevel was set relatively few strokes could achieve the goal of a shave ready razor. That was how Lynn could hone twenty or thirty razors a day, especially since they were mostly new blades for the vendors that he serviced.

So I have nothing against polishing bevels if that is your shtick. I'm not prescribing the less is more method to the exclusion of more intensive honing. Rather my purpose is to relate how I came to understand it and utilize it when I choose to. The 'more is better' school of thought is valid if it works and it does for those who want to go that way. Different strokes and all of that.

I cannot place every name on the short list of bezel shiners. But I bet I'm on it.

JimmyH Every time I read that anecdote it gives me a chuckle. No; Because it can be very true.

Mine is a logical argument. I don't think you can kick against it. You cannot follow it though if you are always going between grits.

The answer though is not to eliminate them firstly. We cannot do that. There is too much learning and shaving that needs done before it can be managed.

The argument is logical the ifs are: if your hones are flat and stroke consistent and even- the scratches will disappear and quick *with resin ceramic whetstones (*it depends control

JimR expressed it well. Residuals are a tool and a control.

I see no use in honing and honing until every residual scratch is gone; because you would miss the qualitative measure of that edge with the true test. I've only been honing / using razors for a wee spell. All in all I expect a multi-year endeavor.

It's always a confusion if one guy is thinking of his style razor and I'm thinking of mine. I have only enough razors to get a general idea of typology. I don't fool with rusty ones or warped ones. I need my toolmakers in the game. I cannot see how I will get better at honing by getting with scores of razors. Just to see if I can make them shave? As a self teacher I have a poor master, he constantly sends me down rabbit holes. Using the same razors over and over is the only way to moniter Me. The only one i really care how well he does at it.

All I want is a simple, effective system that allows me to shave with the effortless promised by the next new thing. Scratch free happens passively on the road to mastery. The business of razor honing is entirely different. It must be about pleasing the most people with as little work as needed.

Jimmy, your post of course explains exactly what I'm missing--experience and in-the-flesh teaching. I doubt I'll ever get the latter, except for a barber who will very likely teach me exactly what yours taught you except on a Nakayama instead of a coticule...so I just need to build my own experience. Which I look at as an excellent excuse to get my hands on as many razors as I can...

And like I said, it's a matter of learning for myself what sharp feels like on the TPT. Since I know what sharp looks like, more or less, I can use one to train the other. I've already noticed some differences and I'm hopeful that I'll notice more as I go along.

But... if less is more, then all those extra minutes I spend makin' love to my bevels is wasted time! Say it ain't so!:boohoo:

As much as it chaps my ass, I think you are right.

As far as brittle or quicker breakdown of edges, I try to negate that with a 5-10 backhone passes and approx 5-20 forward passes right before test shaving, and that seems to work OK for me so far.

I still need to break down and get a blade honed by a honemeister one of these days to truly evaluate this though, I just can't seem to do it as a matter of pride/stubborness. :shrug:

Gotta love SRP I just had these two threads right next to each other


Re Examining my honing - Straight Razor Place Forums

Seems to me that there is more than one approach to the same goal. How an individual chooses to get there is up to him. My only thing was to let folks who may be starting out on the path that may have been as confused as I was know that there is more than one school of thought on how to get there. Each of us has to choose the way they want to go down that road. I want to try mastering less is more first (I'm not there yet) and than I may look at mastering the shining bevels. :)

Absolutely no disrespect meant to you at all Jimmy It just struck me as rather humorous that both threads just happened to appear on my "new posts" screen right next to each other....

I also am more of the less is more school... I count, but I use feel more than anything else as to the proper time to change things up....Whether it be from the TNT, TPT, or just how the edge feels as it goes across the hone....

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Absolutely no disrespect meant to you at all Jimmy It just struck me as rather humorous that both threads just happened to appear on my "new posts" screen right next to each other....

I also am more of the less is more school... I count, but I use feel more than anything else as to the proper time to change things up....Whether it be from the TNT, TPT, or just how the edge feels as it goes across the hone....

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Thanks Glen for clarifying that but I didn't interpret your post that way at all. I just wanted to point out to Kevin, Ivan and Jim that I am not knocking there approach to honing in case anyone got the wrong impression.

I'm not knocking yours either. when there are scratches I don't worry. When there are no scratches I change the battery in my mini scope. I can always find something and most often there are plenty. Next year I expect there to be consistently fewer. Maybe it wont work out that way.

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Originally Posted by kevint

I'm not knocking yours either. when there are scratches I don't worry. When there are no scratches I change the battery in my mini scope. I can always find something and most often there are plenty. Next year I expect there to be consistently fewer. Maybe it wont work out that way.

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I've slept on it and been thinking about it this morning. I am still learning to sharpen razors. I think that there is a science to it and the less is more reflects that but there is also an art and the bevel polishers reflect that aspect.

I feel that if I ever get to the place where I know what I am doing well enough to have confidence that I can pick up a razor regardless of condition and intuitively know what it needs and how to apply it then i will be ready to move on to the artistic level of the bevel polishers. I'm just not there yet. :) If I get there I will have the choice of going beyond the pragmatic level to the artistic.

At the risk of being redundant I will reiterate that my reason for the OP was in case there were new honers or senior members who, like me, may have been confused by what seemed to me to be the contradiction in 'less is more' and polishing the bevel for the sake of art rather than for the shave quality.

The pragmatic approach being that I want to get this razor to give me a superlative shave and the artistic approach being to go above and beyond that capacity and to bring the honing up to the level of the art of Japanese tool sharpening. In thinking about it this morning I think that either approach is valid but they are separate and distinct and the latter is more an advanced technique than the former. Someday I may get there. :beer1:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I've slept on it and been thinking about it this morning. I am still learning to sharpen razors. I think that there is a science to it and the less is more reflects that but there is also an art and the bevel polishers reflect that aspect.

I feel that if I ever get to the place where I know what I am doing well enough to have confidence that I can pick up a razor regardless of condition and intuitively know what it needs and how to apply it then i will be ready to move on to the artistic level of the bevel polishers. I'm just not there yet. :) If I get there I will have the choice of going beyond the pragmatic level to the artistic.

At the risk of being redundant I will reiterate that my reason for the OP was in case there were new honers or senior members who, like me, may have been confused by what seemed to me to be the contradiction in 'less is more' and polishing the bevel for the sake of art rather than for the shave quality.

The pragmatic approach being that I want to get this razor to give me a superlative shave and the artistic approach being to go above and beyond that capacity and to bring the honing up to the level of the art of Japanese tool sharpening. In thinking about it this morning I think that either approach is valid but they are separate and distinct and the latter is more an advanced technique than the former. Someday I may get there. :beer1:

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I wanted to add the rest to what you might have read previously, because I don't keep pushing it to get rid of them by intent. But I do look from time to time while trying to keep a mental log of what is happening, hopefully getting better. What I really hope to develop is that same intuition you describe.

Not to keep whipping it but they should self erase via progression. I do not use paste either. When I have tried them the result is a sharper, easier shaving edge- the same as you've noticed.

I do not believe Glen or Lynn finish on the hone with 20 laps on leather before shipping. We need to consider the whole process before axioms are applied.

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Originally Posted by kevint

I wanted to add the rest to what you might have read previously, because I don't keep pushing it to get rid of them by intent. But I do look from time to time while trying to keep a mental log of what is happening, hopefully getting better. What I really hope to develop is that same intuition you describe.

Not to keep whipping it but they should self erase via progression. I do not use paste either. When I have tried them the result is a sharper, easier shaving edge- the same as you've noticed.

I do not believe Glen or Lynn finish on the hone with 20 laps on leather before shipping. We need to consider the whole process before axioms are applied.

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I don't dispute that. OTOH, when I was new here and struggling with it I thought that if they weren't disappearing I wasn't adequately sharp and maybe I was. I may have gone past it trying to remove scratches that were functionally inconsequential. It wasn't until I bought three razors that Lynn had honed from three different vendors that I had the epiphany.

They were HHT sharp and shaved wonderfully yet under magnification they didn't have the polished bevels that I had been reading about. Subsequent razors from Lynn and other honemiesters showed me that maybe the polished edge was an end in itself and not necessary for a quality shaving sharp edge.

As far as what any of the pro honemiesters do to finish before shipping, I'm not privey to that information. Whatever it is it seems to be working so I guess they don't need to fix it. :)

I always thought
Less is more means =

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By doing less strokes you are saving more razor's(metal).

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I could be wrong . Been there before

Honestly my bevels look near perfect under a 40x loupe right up until the point of using a strop....

I wish I could send them out that way, but through experience I have found that I better strop them up or I will be re-honing edges that somebody destroyed on their strop....

Now if either of you want to send me a razor I will send it back to you at that level so you can check it out under higher mag to see what you can see... I have never bothered with higher than my 40x ....
I know there are striations in the bevel though, there would have to be...

You know Jimmy, people like you and this post are what makes the SRP a awsome place. I know from an earlier post you think I am worreid about scratches.
(All I was saying if you read back on the post is that I was not convinced that the sweet 16000 was as gentle to some steels as it should be. Personally, between us on that part, I am super glad I tried the stone the Japanese use.)
This is good constructive material that will save many a razor from early death. Bud said that earlier and had a great post on that the other day. So you are giving a healthy balance even as one who is a hone addict that perfection does not have to look perfect. That makes tons of sense.
Mike

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Honestly my bevels look near perfect under a 40x loupe right up until the point of using a strop....

I wish I could send them out that way, but through experience I have found that I better strop them up or I will be re-honing edges that somebody destroyed on their strop....

Now if either of you want to send me a razor I will send it back to you at that level so you can check it out under higher mag to see what you can see... I have never bothered with higher than my 40x ....
I know there are striations in the bevel though, there would have to be...

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Glen,
They might look a lot prettier than you think. I noticed that with stropping too. What happened for me is that it was strop material itself on the bevel. i don't know what made me do it but I stropped on a paper towel roll after the leather one time and looked again and it looked just like the stone it came off. But that was just the leather not the canvass.I never looked after canvass.IMHObservation.
Mike

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Originally Posted by JimR

This is a great post, Jimmy, thanks.

I myself have been looking at the scratch patterns, and have been trying to eliminate them as best I could, and I think I have a defensible reason why: it is a clear, visible and objective way to measure honing for a newbie honer like myself.

I understand that it isn't necessary and that as honers improve then the TNT, TPT and, finally, the shave test give a better indication of shave readiness. But until I get to the point where my judgment from the TPT starts to reach point where I am confident in moving to the shave test, scratch pattern elimination is giving me some pretty darned good edges.

I fully expect that as I get better and more experienced (to flirt with redundancy), then scratch patterns will become less important to my honing--I look forward to that day. However, learning to hone is a process and in many ways it can't be taught by anything but experience. At the moment, I'm not confident enough in my TPT, or even my understanding of the shave test, to rule out scratch pattern elimination.

It'll come, I'm sure.

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I have to respectfully disagree with you. scratch pattern on the bevel has nothing to do with sharpness of the edge.
Example norton 8 k will take out every single scratch and edge will not give to you satisfying shave.( this doesn't mean you cannot get great shave off , i am sure you can . i brought this example because i know how norton 8k acts.)

IMO scratch pattern, on almost any cutting edge, or any type, for any purpose is strictly aesthetic.

I have a razor on it's way to Lynn as well now so that I can check it out when he is done with it.

I have four here in my possession that I have honed different ways. The sharpest one is the one I used the lightest touch on. They are all the same steel and grind.

They all pop hair, short face stubble is a different story.

Fwiw, the one that I spent the most time on, and polished the best, shaves the worst.