back and forth honing

So i just picked up a DGLP and 1k Shapton stone from Howard. In the purchase I decided to get his DVD on sharpening. I found it interesting in the way that Harrelson Stanley from Shapton honed the razors.

Instead of a 90 or 45 degree angle he holds the razor at about a 20 degree angle...where the blade is almost perpendicular to the stone. His honing technique was also interesting in something that Livi does as well. Instead of a traditional pass he does a back and forth motion (imagine coloring with a crayon back and forth)

Just wondering if anyone else had used this technique. I might give it a go on one of my junkers. Im really excited to have my DGLP. Scrubbing the swarf off with a nylon brush wasnt cutting it anymore.

it is fine tech until you get the final touch. what that person is doing taking out wire edge if any by doing back strokes.

have you seen the DVD?

He basically did the type of stroke the whole way through. He wasnt doing it to take out a wire edge. From start to finish, he used a back and forth method. He even bread knifed at 16k.

Its a very interesting video.....Im kinda shocked to be honest how often he goes to the DGLP. Im like so pumped to hone right now..haha. I have 6 blades that have been waiting for the plate to come in so I could have clean stones.

I will tell you this...I would love to barter with Mr. Stanley...Ill show him how to shave..and he can show me how to hone with his system.

He was really struggling with his shave..but takes some guts first time shaving on camera no less..haha

The back and forth, or paint brush is also referred to as Japanese Style too and is a very old technique...

I use it along with circles for corrective honing on restores... you can get different results by adjusting the length of the stroke too and the heel angle to the stone..

I tried the actual technique that is demonstrated in that video after Jimmy lent it to me but I have never worked it enough, to get the results I want...

By doing that he avoids any bur formation. when he does bread knifing he puts zero pressure and removes very small peaces from the edge.( you will have them until you get "v " edge)
i agree with this method all way until final touch.
I think if you hone blade correct after forming V edge there is no reason to bread knifing. nothing remove anymore?
you can see how his method works efficiently while you hone smiling blades . end of the smile always has very small peaces attached to the edge. you do bread knifing and remove it. then you continue hone and it forms again etc you bread knife until that point is gets v shape .

I should add i haven't watch the video but have conversation about his method with Jimmy.

I have been doing this for a while... but like sham said, I like it only up until I am trying to finish. After some back and forths to do most of the work, I always go through about 10-15 20 laps with an x stroke (this is on my bbw coticule combo FWIW)

Issac, I have honed a couple of razors following Harrelson's method on the DVD. Here is a post on the topic.

I use barts halve stroke on coticule and it great for speed to get bevel back. I brought the dvd and watched it several times but i have to say i did'nt fancy the using the method my self and i stick to the usaul x pattern along with circles / halve stroke only when needed. The actual shaving demo by howard him selve surprised me it did'nt look very nice with the amount of blood he was creating if i shaved my customers like that they'd never come back. Even though thats what happens when you shave against the grain in some cases depending on your skin.

I've always used a back & forth stroke for rapid metal removal. It's primarily because i'm a lazy b@stard. I was very pleased when i did eventually find out that it was an acceptable technique!

The important things to remember are that you must be aware of what's happening to the steel, as it happens fairly fast, & also that the more conventional stroke, with the flip must be employed as the razor nears readiness.

Bart's video shows him doing it incredibly fast. Don't try to match that just yet!
As Glen mentions, circles work very well & provide continuous movement over the hone. That speeds things up too.

You might find Bart's video useful. It's fun to watch anyway YouTube - Belgian Blue Whetstone honing

I like the back and forth stroke and use it on the lower grits up to and including the 8K. At the finish of the 8K session I use the edge leading stroke a few times.

bj

When you say 'back and forth' do you mean he sharpens from heel to tip?

It can depend on the grind of the steel with knives but you are not going to avoid forming a burr by sharpening that way (sometimes referred to as longitude) It may not happen with a razor because the pressure is so light, but my point is that this technique will also form a burr.

I've done some of my own experimenting with removing burrs with a longitude stroke and I've found that it can damage your edge if you sharpened it with lattitude strokes. It can cause microchipping and I think it's because if you sharpened with lattitude strokes you are putting a "grain" on your bevel and when you go back to remove the burr with a longitude stroke you are going against the grain you just created and it seems like the interruption of that 'flow' can chip on very hard steels.

I've not noticed it happening if you sharpened the blade with longitude strokes the entire time. So take it for what it's worth, all of the above I posted is my experience with knives and razors are a different animal all together.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Visibility

When you say 'back and forth' do you mean he sharpens from heel to tip?

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It seems to me that the thread got a bit confused between "Livi strokes" which are side to side or latitudinal as opposed to Harrelson's which are indeed heel to point. or longitudinal. You would have to see the DVD to get Harrelson's approach I suppose. Having done both I prefer the Livi strokes in setting a bevel on some razors.

There are many Honemeisters who use this method. Murray Carter, Howard from the Perfect Edge and Mastro Livi to name a few. I have emailed Howard and read Mastro Livi's technique and the key is very light pressure. Murray Carter and Mastro Livi use very few laps. It's the technique they use that gives them amazing results. I found it works very
well on lower grits but still like the blade forward on my 12k and 20k stones. I have 2 Mastro Livi razors and am amazed how he gets the edge on these razors using the stones he has and amount of laps he does. Maybe after 60 years I will be able to get the edges also.

The half lap, Japanese style honing and the side honing method work well especially together.

The half lap when used with a progressively reduced lap count as in traditional Japanese Honing or Alex Gilmore’s, (Ax Method) prevent or eliminate the burr that honing multiple laps on one side will cause. Japanese style, Ax Method uses a progressive reduction in the number of laps and pressure in higher grit stones.

Side honing removes deep stria quickly, that low grit honing causes, simply by honing across the stria, much like cross sanding or an orbital sander would, it is discussed in more detail in Honing to a Straight Edge, thread in the Advanced Honing Forum.

Side honing is especially productive when use as the final laps on a stone prior to moving up in grits and or as the first initial laps when moving up on a finer hone. Side Honing Revisited, covers more of this. So it does not matter if a wire is produced, which I have never encountered. Either way, half lap or any edge forward honing will remove and re-set the bevels quickly.

Most of these techniques are not new, and have been used successfully for thousands of years, Man has been rubbing metal on rocks since metal was discovered. Most of what we do is Re-discover techniques, understanding them produce another tool, to be used when needed. I don’t know that, the results are amazing, a straight, properly honed edge is, a properly honed edge. It also does not hurt, to strop on a quality Chromium Oxide pasted strop to finish.

I have been using the back and forth method on lower grit stones for a while. It works very well for me especially on razors with a not so perfect edge.
That's the first time however, in the video, that I have seen anyone use paste on a stone. I would be interested in hearing if anyone else does this and how well it works. Also how easy/hard is it to clean the stone afterward?

Pete <:-}

Using paste on a stone, while it can be interesting, does not really provide any benefit over stropping on a grit neutral surface strop, leather, cloth, nylon, paper and wood.

On some stones, were the grit is friable, (continuing to break down) some interesting polishing results can be had, but still the .5um Chrome Oxide is still doing all the work. Chrome Oxide washes off easily with a good soap and a lite lapping removes any trace, so there is no danger there.

I save grits from lapped stones and have use them to experiment with on high grit natural stones, as well as pastes and nano grit sprays, with interesting results, but I prefer repeatable results of a pasted strop. For high nano grit sprays paper seems to produce results in a hanging strop.

Interestingly I have been using a couple drops of liquid Chrome Oxide with good metal polish on a paper towel for some very nice bright hand polished finishes.

If you use the half lap, Japanese stroke, I find it most useful on the last few finish strokes or on the finisher, to only use one directional strokes for a finer finish, so that the finish strokes are only edge leading, like Alex does.

For the initial bevel shaping strokes it does not matter much, but the last few finishing strokes will leave a more uniform stria pattern, also use less pressure.