My razor is too sharp???? I like a duller edge??

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Originally Posted by Bart

I don't care. I own such a machine. CrO on a piece of leather remains Cro on a piece of leather, whether that piece of leather rubs against the edge, or whether you rub the edge against the leather.

The bottom line remains that the edge width is smaller.
The bottom line also is, that at Chosera 5K level, I can't pass a decent HHT, while the exactly same hair pops at the mere touch with the Chosera 10K edge. And falls silently once that edge is stropped. A stropped 5K edge pops hairs if I pull them a bit.

Some call it a parlor trick, but it a hair that we are severing, right?
Or is it a hair that we are splitting?

Whether the difference in performance is due to edge width, or to decreased friction, I believe am going to read Charlie's post one last time, and go to bed...

:)

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I think the key difference is that he's using a different honing technique on the tormek, lifting the edge up and changing the honing angle. He doesn't get this sort of result using the flatbed strop where he doesn't change the honing angle.

As for why your 5k chosera edges won't pop hair I really haven't a clue. I've seen the same thing by the way, edges pop at 1k then stop in the intermediate grits then start popping again at the 12-15k range. I don't know why. Verhoeven mentions that the 200 and 600 grit edges he did cut hair just fine, though he doesn't say anything about popping.

He does speculate that the burrs may be very sharp from the side, and that this may be responsible for sawing-type cutting efficiency. Maybe our hands vibrate just enough when we're holding the razor that the hair sees enough of a sawing motion that the sharp edges of the burrs pop the hair? At intermediate grits the burrs aren't big enough to pop the hair in one swipe, but the edge isn't sharp enough to pop by itself.

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

You see this man says what he sees.
he is talking about bar's on 600 or 1k level. that is all correct
after 8 k basically we don't have bar's. it is just straight line edge. now we make that edge narrower until we get highest grit stone we have used.

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Except that when he went from a 6k waterstone to 0.5 micron chrome oxide on a bench strop the edge went from 0.5 microns to 0.45 microns. So 10% sharper, measuring across the bevels. That's just not much, certainly not enough to explain the difference in sharpness that we perceive.

I really appreciate the scientific discussions presented here, even though I cannot translate them into my own experience.

For me, you cannot get an edge too sharp. The sharper the better and the smoother, closer shave you will get. That said, everybody has their own technique for shaving and their own comfort levels, I would say sharp is what give you personally the most comfortable and close shave you can get.

Thanks for the great thread.

Lynn

what about blade 3-63, 0.26 edge width after 1 micron diamond

interesting that you can't notice improved sharpness on razors during shaving at these levels, it shows up on knives when push cutting newsprint.

Why is 4K not a stopping place for honing?

I am not sure whether sharpness or smoothness is the right term. But turning to DE blades for a minute, there is no question that Feather DE blades are more apt to cut or burn folks than say, Derby or Red Pack Personna blades.

To me, if feels more natural to refer to the Feather blades as "sharper" than the Derby blades. I think that is a common expression.

That said, I personally prefer Derby blades because they are clearly sharp enough to give me a close shave without the weepers or burn I can get with the Feathers.

I don't know, from a technical standpoint, whether the Derby blades are duller, smoother, or what. But clearly they are different. Some people use the word "harsh" and maybe that works better. I also know that many people will run Feather DE blades across cork or styrofoam to do "something" to the blade that gives a close, comfortable shave without the weepers or burn. I don't know if that is "dulling" the blade or "smoothing" the blade. I've not done that. But I have used the Feather disposable straight blades, and there was no question that, with the Pro Super blades, that the shaves got better as the week went on. I referred to that as betting "duller," but maybe it was getting smoother. Either way, if Feather had produced blades that shaved out of the injector the way the Pro Super shaved me on the 3rd or 4th day, I would have bought those.

Dulling and smoothing would be one in the same, as edges lose sharpness by either blunting (smoothing, or increasing the radius of the edge) or by fracturing. Low alloy or simple steels with fine cabides generally dull by blunting and don't suffer carbide tearout to the degree of say, D2 or 440C.

Given my current method and level of skill, a blade can be sharper than I can handle and be comfortable. This would be just like some cars can attain speed that, given my current skill level and the conditions under which I drive, would be unsafe for me. A sharper blade, just like higher speed, can be attained, it doesn't mean everyone (including those with less skill and/or experience) should attain it.

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Originally Posted by hardheart

what about blade 3-63, 0.26 edge width after 1 micron diamond

interesting that you can't notice improved sharpness on razors during shaving at these levels, it shows up on knives when push cutting newsprint.

Why is 4K not a stopping place for honing?

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Shave off the 4K and you will have your answer.

Lynn

The new avatar looks good Lynn ... is that a Havana ?

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Originally Posted by hardheart

what about blade 3-63, 0.26 edge width after 1 micron diamond

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That was on the tormek machine, and was honed differently from the ones in chapter 4 that were honed on flat hones and flat strops. These blades were also honed at a 40 degree angle while the ones in chapter 4 were honed at 48 degrees, all of which makes it difficult to directly compare the numbers between the two chapters.

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Originally Posted by hardheart

interesting that you can't notice improved sharpness on razors during shaving at these levels, it shows up on knives when push cutting newsprint.

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I never said that you can't notice improved sharpness past 4k. You can. The question is what causes this - is it because of the reduced edge width, or something else?