Thread: Bismark and micro chipping

Hey guys.

I've been trying some new things on my poor Bismark - I recently acquired the Shapton Glass 10K and I'm loving it. I'm skipping the 16K right now. I had a conversation with Harrelson Stanley and when I asked him about the chipping the 16K caused, he said the binding was a little harder for that particular stone, which could cause micro chipping. The conversation was brought on because of a video discussing the same chipping of razors caused by the 16K.

So I went Glass 4K, 8K 10K. Everything looked really good under the scope (and felt great on my face) and then tried one more piece of tape to get the micro bevel at 30K. with just 5 strokes, there was a nasty edge that was full of micro chips.

So I took off the extra tape and reset the bevel with the same 4K, 8K, 10K, and then made 3 strokes on the 30K. It looked like if I had gone one more stroke, it would've started to break up the edge. After some good stropping, the edge is straight and intact, but I don't know how it will hold up under a shave.

This was my first experience with the 30K doing this. Now I know my poor Bismark should probably be retired, but I'm wondering if I was simply on the verge of over honing, or is there something to the metal that just doesn't like to be honed past a certain point?

Thanks!

Are you sure that it's microchipping and not the raggedness of a burr? If you lightly run it across a toothpick or wine cork does it change or stay the same?

I find it hard to believe that a razor not otherwise prone to microchipping can be affected the way you have described by the 30k. Remember the 30k is only doing a minimal amount of work micro or otherwise. I would bet that you are spending too much time on the 8k level and definitely not anything you are doing with the 30k.
On the other hand, if you are running into a bad patch of metal as you advance toward the Bismark's spine that could explain that it is the razor. Some razors that are prone to chipping, bad metal, tempering etc. I have found that if you use a natural like the Nakayma, that silky surface eliminates the problem of microchipping to a measurable extent on such razors and then finish it off with the 30k. These are just my experiences, based on hundreds of honings not thousands.

mparker - this was clearly micro chipping, not a burr. Even after stropping, there were literally gaps all along the edge. I didn't think the 30K, especially with the extra layer of tape, could or would do that. This was a first for me.

Kingfish - I spent more time on the 4K than the 8K. I did about 30-40 to reset the bevel on the 4K, then did no more than 20 on the 8K and 10K. At the 10K, the edge looked great. With 3 on the 30K, it still held up, but any more, and I'm sure it would've started to chip.

I wouldn't be surprised if I've worked this blade past the temper line (if there is one). I didn't feel anything different when sharpening, but the degredation of the edge in this manner suggests that it is the steel which is in question.

Come to think of it - the shave I had prior to this was excellent at first, but by the ATG shave, the edge was raw and I did not get anything near BBS. That's why I set out to remedy the blade. This was also the first time this razor quit like that.

Perhaps I have finally dealt it the death blow...

Originally Posted by jendeindustries

I wouldn't be surprised if I've worked this blade past the temper line (if there is one). I didn't feel anything different when sharpening, but the degredation of the edge in this manner suggests that it is the steel which is in question.

Come to think of it - the shave I had prior to this was excellent at first, but by the ATG shave, the edge was raw and I did not get anything near BBS. That's why I set out to remedy the blade. This was also the first time this razor quit like that.

Perhaps I have finally dealt it the death blow...

My condolences to your "poor Bismark". I always wondered if it was possible to wear out a good razor in one generation, you did it in a year or two. In reality, it has been a good teacher and maybe your learning curve benfited by only varying the method not the tool. I am almost embarassed to tell you how may old razors I have collected over a couple of years. Almost all of them shared the pain of my learning curve by numerous and countless honing sessions.
Well it's all "swarf down the drain" as they say> it gave you it's best when you were at your worst, and now that you are at your best it has nothing left.. I am tearing up, I have to stop now. RIP Bismark.
Mike

Mike,

I've had this Bismark for over 5 years - it was my first straight razor. I shamefully admit that in that time, I treated it like sharpening a knife, my stropping was about 10 tons of weight with all kinds of pastes, and I even took it to the belt sander a few times to thin out the spine thinking that a more acute angle was the remedy....

Since finding the SRP, I was able to get some very nice shaves off of it, but it was still my main learning blade. I had left it alone for the past few months and decided it was time to really do it up proper. So I put 3 layers of tape (to make up for the spine loss on the sander a few years ago...) and here we are.

I will give it another shave test at the end of this week to see if it still quits half way through. But yes, I think you have hit it on the head - now that I feel like I have a handle on my razor sharpening, my razors have lost their handle!

I just shaved with my Bismark after redoing it. It looks like just another case of over honing.....

Originally Posted by jendeindustries

I just shaved with my Bismark after redoing it. It looks like just another case of over honing.....

Glad to hear it. It's happened to me before, which is why I suggested the possibility of a burr. Stropping on plain leather isn't necessarily enough to remove a burr, not even stropping on linen will necessarily remove it - the burr can be flexible enough to simply bend back and forth without breaking.

Originally Posted by jendeindustries

Hey guys.

I've been trying some new things on my poor Bismark - I recently acquired the Shapton Glass 10K and I'm loving it. I'm skipping the 16K right now. I had a conversation with Harrelson Stanley and when I asked him about the chipping the 16K caused, he said the binding was a little harder for that particular stone, which could cause micro chipping. The conversation was brought on because of a video discussing the same chipping of razors caused by the 16K.

So I went Glass 4K, 8K 10K. Everything looked really good under the scope (and felt great on my face) and then tried one more piece of tape to get the micro bevel at 30K. with just 5 strokes, there was a nasty edge that was full of micro chips.

So I took off the extra tape and reset the bevel with the same 4K, 8K, 10K, and then made 3 strokes on the 30K. It looked like if I had gone one more stroke, it would've started to break up the edge. After some good stropping, the edge is straight and intact, but I don't know how it will hold up under a shave.

This was my first experience with the 30K doing this. Now I know my poor Bismark should probably be retired, but I'm wondering if I was simply on the verge of over honing, or is there something to the metal that just doesn't like to be honed past a certain point?

Thanks!

I decided to put a nice polished edge on one of my knives using my spyderco ceramics one day. The knife was made of 52100 ball bearing steel with a Rc of 62, after progressing through my medium and fine stones I started to finish with my lapped UF ceramic. Every thing was looking good except the last inch or so near the tip where there was a really rough burr or so I thought. When I took a closer look this is what I saw





I also had this problem with ZDP-189 Rc 64+ a few times, after some thinking I contributed it to the high Rc of the steels, high density of the ceramics and too much pressure even though I was using just the weight of the blade.

Though you may have been using very light pressure your troubles may have started when you added the microbevel. Less contact area of the bevel to the stone would have created higher forces on the very fine edge. If you use Diamond or synthetic waterstones and don't see these effects you will know your answer.

Originally Posted by knifenut1013

Though you may have been using very light pressure your troubles may have started when you added the microbevel. Less contact area of the bevel to the stone would have created higher forces on the very fine edge.

+1

I'm not a fan of microbevels myself. I tried this three years ago when I first got my Shapton 15k Pro hone, and discovered that microbevels didn't give me anything that a pasted hanging strop wouldn't do better and with less stress on the edge.