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Usage of Jnat's together with proper naguras gave me absolutely great result which I, honestly, don't even expected. However one question still bugging me. What is more important, great stone or real nagura? Ideal combination would be both, that for sure. But can you get the same result with just average stone and proper nagura? Any ideas?
how do you know that your jnat is average?
As far as I know no nagura is that fine.
I am not talking about stones that I have. I am absolutely happy with them. I am thinking about what if instead of shoubu or nakayama I bought something like Shouhon-yama (正本山) and used nagura with them. Those stones relatively "cheap", but can you get great result? What is more important, stone itself or nagura?
I would say they are equally important, with one condition: the stone must be fairly hard.
Basically, and I might be opening a can of worms here, I think hardness of the stone is more important than "grit" when we're talking Japanese hones. I honestly believe that there's a real, measurable reason for this, namely: the "grit" in the Honkuchi naori Japanese hones is all pretty much the same, it just depends on how much is exposed, and at what speed, in the honing process. So hard hones = better control of exposure.
Exactly, your post of honing kamisori on one stone with different naguras make me think that different "grit" slurry is all you need for acheiving excellent result.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
this is a little tricky to answer. In reality you have to have finer stone then you can use different grit stones and get job done. But remember in last finishing stage you will end up using fine stones power not nagura. Lets say you have hardest stone chinese 12k and you can use different slurry get blade sharpened and in last finishing stage you can find fine nagura and use it. This will exactly what you are asking. In conclusion if your stone finer then nagura your idea wont work as you asked.if your nagura finer then stone itself it will work as you asked.gl
I have used the one stone method of honing with an Awase stone and an Asagi, Suita and Ohzuku. I have played around with a generic Japanese Woodworker nagura as well as using coticule and escher rubbing stones. On all I went from a thick slurry and then worked to dilute down to just water. You can hone a razor in fairly good shape using this method, but it can take a lot of time and experimentation. Worth the effort in my opinion from a learning perspective. On the few hundred razors I have honed using this method, only around 50 percent were good to go first time around.
Have fun,
Lynn
I have two hard jnats.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
One is Narutaki "Takachiho" and another is Uchigumori from Namikawa sword polishing kit.
With good nagura stones (thanks to Tras Krom) even Uchigumori give very fine edge while it is looking as #6000 grit or under.
Narutaki "Takachiho" is very hard and finer than Uchigumori
but there are many defects (like dots and veinlets) on it's surface.
Nevertheless it give the finest edge I have ever seen.
While the other softer and definitely finer stones (Shoubu and one other from Dick Gmbh. with no name known) give no such a fine edge.
Two another important things to achieve the finer edge
in addition to hardness of stone and good nagura
are the pressure applied while honing
also amount of and consistency of slurry.
I am going to continue my experiments
so I want to know which stones could be used as alternative to nagura
to achieve the finest slurry and thus to get the sharpest edge?
Any idea?
Nikolay
Welcome to Straight Razor Place!
I have read the post once more andQuote:
Originally Posted by JimR
I almost accept that point
but I don't like the word hardness.
The hardness itself is not what we need.
The subject is more complex, than just hardness of stone
and include such characteristics as uniformity and density of particles (grains). The more uniform is grain in size and form
the more dense is grain the better is stone for finishing honing.
The second thing we need is the condition stone of working surface.
It should be lapped very plain and very smooth.
Good examples are arkansas and belgian yellow coticle.
The size of their grain is bigger than grain of toishi, but their grain is well shaped and very uniform.
IMHO translucent arkansas with surface lapped to mirror glace is the best stone ever for the final touch to the edge.
BTW the japanese guys appraise such a translucent arkansas very high for it's hardness and uniformity
I hope I will find soon and post here good SEM micrographs of toishi (like ones on toishi.jp site) and of arkansas to illustrate the idea of grain shape and uniformity.
IMHO this is very accurate observation, now imagine a Jnat that has all the characteristics you mentioned above but is also very hard in addition to that, that produces killer edges.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolay
I find this definitely makes a difference.Quote:
The second thing we need is the condition stone of working surface.
It should be lapped very plain and very smooth.
I have read the post once more andQuote:
Originally Posted by JimR
I almost accept that point
but I don't like the word hardness.
The hardness itself is not what we need.
The subject is more complex, than just hardness of stone
and include such characteristics as uniformity and density of particles (grains). The more uniform is grain in size and form
the more dense is grain the better is stone for finishing honing.
The second thing we need is the state of working surface.
It should be very plain and very smooth.
Good examples are arkansas and belgian yellow coticle.
The size of their grain is bigger than grain of toishi, but their grain is well shaped and very uniform.
IMHO translucent arkansas with surface lapped to mirror glace is the best stone ever for the final touch to the edge.
BTW the japanese guys appraise such a translucent arkansas very high for it's hardness and uniformity
Here it is SEM micrographs of arkansas to illustrate the idea of grain shape and uniformity:
http://hocktools.files.wordpress.com...nsas-1-8kx.jpg
some other micrographs of Arkansas stones can be found here:
http://www.google.ru/images?q=SEM+mi...w=1280&bih=821
the good micrographs of toishi:
http://www.toishi.jp/bunseki1.html
SEM micrographs of toishi are presented there as PDF documents:
http://www.toishi.jp/bunsekisitu/kiirosuita_seibun.pdf
http://www.toishi.jp/bunsekisitu/aisa_seibun.pdf
etc.
note the difference in shape, size and layout of grains.