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I had some time to continue my experiments tonight. The pictures pretty well speak for themselves:
(the microscope claims that these are at 400x, by my math they are closer to 150x.)
Edit: to be clear, I am not advocating high laps. This is an experiment to see what happens when using high laps...
Last pic...
Awhile ago someone asked for a picture of an edge after shaving with it.
This is what this one looked like:
Nice pics. So it seems that the edge was developing microchips after honing on the high grits with a lot of pressure. Am I getting that right?
That's my conclusion from what I've seen so far. I have been able to see edge damage from high laps as well (it didn't happen with this razor). As far as doing too many laps goes, the damage that I've seen is usually minimal enough to where the razor will still shave. The big problem with too many laps is that they aren't really necessary (note that 20 laps on the 8k is virtually no different than 80 laps, and 10 laps on the 12k are virtually no different than 75 laps) so what happens with high laps is that you do take a risk of developing a microburr, but you also take the risk of having one bad stroke that will ruin your edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by heirkb
The big problem is using pressure on the high grit stones. When using pressure it doesn't take many laps at all to do damage that will prevent the blade from shaving well.
At least... those are my conclusions so far. The experimenting continues. :)
GOODNESS, it's nice to "see" the what pressure does to the edge. It took my stubborn self too long to learn the importance of pressure.
The 10-laps on CrOx I assume is after the 75-laps 12K Nani?
Is the the idea of cross-hatching or varying the scratch pattern of any interest to you? I've long wondered if it was a placebo affect or not, but I typically try to vary the scratch pattern as I get close to being done on a particular hone.
What 'scope are you using? I've been eyeballing the Veho USB microscope for some time.
I will send you polycrystalline diamond and monocrystalline diamond spray in .5microns if you want to compare them. I've looked all over the internet and the only comparisons I can find are related to aesthetic polishing, NOT cutting egdes. I know on knives and scissors I prefer the poly hands down. (Mono=non-friable, crystaline "blocks" Poly=friable jagged crystaline "****erburrs")
I'm still undecided on razors, as I haven't given a fair comparison of .5 mono to .5 poly yet. Only 3mic poly to 2mic mono...and poly still wins that battle. I have .5 mono and .25 poly but that's not a fair comparison.
It would only let me "thank you" once! lol
Yeah, I should have mentioned the sequencing in the OP... The first picture is of what I consider a finished 8k edge. Then I decided to ruin it. Hehe. I went back to the 4k to take those chips out, and then back to the 8k to get back to what we started with before doing the high lap count and then moving on to the 12k. The sequence with the 12k was basically the same... Get it finished (10 laps) kill it (pressure) then back down to the 8k to fix it before moving back to the high laps. From there it was on to the CrOx. I didn't do anything other than more laps between those photos... There was no damage to fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soilarch
One thing that occurred to me while I was doing this is that the pyramids can probably make a huge difference for a honer that is heavy-handed.
I'm not familiar with the technique for that, and have never tried it. After I have the bevel I usually just do x-strokes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soilarch
I was originally using a Veho, but I just got a Red Ant and really like it. It was the cheapest USB microscope I could find, originally I bought it to get parts for the shave cam. But... I am going to keep using this one, and the Veho is going to be turned into the shave cam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soilarch
I will say that if you're not good at troubleshooting problems, the install on the Veho was easier. The Red Ant has almost no documentation, and I could see it being confusing for some folks.
I'll send you a PM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soilarch
What a great, great post! Thank you.
It would be interesting to see some pictures of an edge after some circular honing.
Thank you very much for posting the pics of your results. It's always nice to see what is happening to an edge. I love using my microscope to look at whats being done to the edge as I hone, but I cant take pics with mine :(
It's nice for someone learning to hone to be able to see the pics you have posted as well. Maybe it will give them an Idea about how pressure can change an edge.
Once again thank you
Great pics, thanks for your hard work and sharing. It was interesting to see the effect of too much pressure has. A good reminder to take your time and let the hone do it's job and not rush IMHO.
So these pictures were taken with this USb mic?
Red Ant DM-300A PC Link USB Digital Microscope - eBay (item 320562483436 end time Mar-13-11 08:18:20 PDT)
The pictures are beautiful! I hope I can continue to push forward my thoughts that honing is more about "scupting" than just tearing away at metal indiscrimently.
I believe, but do not worry about, a finite amount of laps that each steel type (carbon and stainless) can withstand, even without pressure. But, 60-80 passes doesn't seem to be the range. But, I would be curious if you think you find that point.
I think a few more examples of the results between the 10 lap range and say 60-75 would be pretty conclusive. I've always done lots and lots of laps, and found better results. But, it's so easy to develop bad assumptions.
Yes. As mentioned above, there is almost no documentation with it, so it might cause some difficulty in figuring out how to install.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeness
After trying numerous methods to hold the blade, I've found the easiest so far is to put some silly putty on both sides of the stand and sticking the blade onto it so that it angles up slightly into the lens.
That is one thing that has been lacking in all of my experiments, are the pictures between low-normal laps and high laps. When I get a chance I will take some pictures in 10 lap increments on each stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
Thanks for the pictures I can't get to many.
I think this is a good example of once the bevel is set the rest should be quick. You are just erasing the previous "bigger" scratches with smaller ones.
Tim
REALLY great post!! The 10 lap increment pictures should be really interesting.
Very good post!:tu and I don't say that very often anymore.
There is a limit to what the steel will take before it starts to crumble. Thats how thin the edge gets. Your pics show that.
FWIW I usually use 20-30 laps on the finishing stones ( man made hones) and abrasive pastes and none of them with pressure.
The one variable that cannot be accounted for is the answer to the question...just how sharp was the blade before you used the 8K ?, the 12K?, etc. It is maddening but that is why we "refine" the edge between shaves until it suits us.
Just my $.02, :)
Nice pics Eric! Just goes to show how much damage pressure does to an edge..!
Thank you for these Eric, they really made me think about my technique on the hones. Lately i have found that i got my best edges when i used my almost exausted DMT 325 to set the initial bevels and then moved onto a 10-30 laps per stone in my usual progression. Thanks to your pics i am now understanding why i think....
Wow incredible to see such close up well done!!!
At which point did you do the stropping with linen & leather?
After CrOx or after 12K naniwa?
I too would be interested in the results of varying the scratch pattern (ie. honing just 10 strokes, but all with slightly different angle)
I went from the 12k to CrOx to stropping.
Wow, that was quick reply.
So what I've read here kind of gives me the message:
forget the big repetition counts you've read about in JaNorton, instead use necessary (many) strokes to set the bevel with low grit (1K) stone, then move up the ladder with no more than ~20 strokes at each step, and no pressure.
?
At least in theory...
I'll have to try that one next. Perhaps that's good option for newbie: less chances to make mistakes which kill the edge.
I'd say do 20 strokes, test for improvement, do 20 more strokes, test, etc...
Continue that at each grit until you don't have any more improvement.
Remember that every razor is different. Stroke counts can cause problems because the number of strokes that work for one razor may not work for another.
This particular razor seemed to do well at 20 strokes. The next one might take 10 or might take 40.
The biggest thing I got out of this razor and series of pictures is that pressure causes harm almost immediately.
For sure, you just said a mouthfull. The lighter the pressure the higher the effective grit range? Maybe that idea is flawed, but it works for me and if it has been said before, I am with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by HNSB
On the other hand if you use pressure, you force the edge to conform the the microundulations of the stone, stone wins and edge degrades. Probably a little of both, but anyone who has advanced to high end finishing in this sport and feels himself accomplished has a good set of hands and is just kissing that stone to squeeze that last little bit of smoooothness.
Also, I really think that good micro pics have a big part of the future of the advancement of the "science" behind what we do. For example, what do smooth egdes look like, are there common features? I only have a light microscope that is quite usefull to about 100x but has at least taught me some things I don't like in an edge.
Well done.
I agree microscopes are a valuable tool. Use a cheap one a fair bit. I also agree that I can see things that are obviously not conducive to a nice shave but I'm puzzled that a smooth shaving edge doesn't always look like what I expect it to. I like to see a super smooth straight-ish line in an edge yet some razors that appear slightly toothy can shave just as nicely. Good topic for another thread maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingfish
Fore sure! To add to the mix is shaving style and how different edges act. When I first started straight shaving, my shaving strokes were straight on with no scything or point leading as taught in barber schools. At that time I would not have appreciated nearly as much as I do now the edges I get from natural stones which under magnification leave more visible tooth than a shapton 30k.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
In the end I am not confident that all of our science could make a better straight shave but it does make us better understand what we are doing from hone to shave. Maybe it is like the perfection of a violin that occured centries ago from an accumilation experiments and improvements that lead to it's current state but have not really improved in any major way for more than two centries. A violin is made of around 70 parts all working together as a whole, any variation in material or form is mostly considered bad for the sound.