How consistent are your honing results?

Until recently all I did when a razor needed a touch-up was 15-20 laps on the Y/G Escher followed by 50 on the Nakayama and strop. After this my razors invariably pass the arm hair test. But not the HHT. Feeling uneasy about this I have been trying the last few months to find a touch-up routine that would invariably lead to an edge that passes the HHT.

Until now no luck. The following works for most razors but not all: 20 laps on the Escher followed by 20-50 on the Tam O' Shanter.. This really suprises me as the TOS is usually thought to be less fine than a Y/G Escher.

So here are my questions

1. why do I get a sharper edge going down the grit ladder?
2. what is your routine that invariably gets you a HHT positive result?

BTW until recently I agreed with those who say that very thin hair is unsuitable for the HHT. Nowadays I feel that if the edge is sharp enough it does not matter what quality hair you use for the HHT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kees

Until recently all I did when a razor needed a touch-up was 15-20 laps on the Y/G Escher followed by 50 on the Nakayama and strop. After this my razors invariably pass the arm hair test. But not the HHT. Feeling uneasy about this I have been trying the last few months to find a touch-up routine that would invariably lead to an edge that passes the HHT.

Until now no luck. The following works for most razors but not all: 20 laps on the Escher followed by 20-50 on the Tam O' Shanter.. This really suprises me as the TOS is usually thought to be less fine than a Y/G Escher.

So here are my questions

1. why do I get a sharper edge going down the grit ladder?
2. what is your routine that invariably gets you a HHT positive result?

BTW until recently I agreed with those who say that very thin hair is unsuitable for the HHT. Nowadays I feel that if the edge is sharp enough it does not matter what quality hair you use for the HHT.

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I am sure you know Kees number of the strokes in any period of honing time is just guessing game.
there is no way someone will tell you exact result of honing after curtain laps.
It depends too many factors, hones, natural or synthetic,pressure ,blade quality and so on.
i have never had any problem to get blade pass HHT.
in fact i never look for it.
i think Every person can get curtain sharpness from the particular blade.
when you hit that point you should stop. Not easy to do so.
Now sometimes you will have max sharpness from blade x and it will pass HHT.
NEXT RAZOR you will get max sharpness but will never pass HHT.
can you make this razor pass HHT answer is yes but should you? i don't think so. if you do so you will end up very fragile edge which will shave half of your face for next half you will end up stropping.
hope this helps.

The HHT is not a good gauge of sharpness, period. Using this as the final test in honing will have you chasing your tail. Also as Sham stated, counting strokes is not the way to tell you when to move from one hone to another. There are lots of posts around SRP describing the honing process, some of which are by me. I would suggest moving away from the HHT, just use counts of laps or time to balance the metal removed from each side of the blade and observe how the edge changes the more you use one particular hone and when you have gone too far (if you ever reach that point). Lastly, the more pressure you use while honing from 8k and up, the less sharp you will find your results. Search SRP and read the posts by senior members for good more advice on honing and modify it to match your style.

I too do not care about HHT (I almost feel HHT should be blacklisted in the search function, it will make the life of many people a lot easier)
When I finish on a natural stone I do not count anymore, after some practice,I think one develops a feeling for when the edge is there.

I feel like joking and telling you that the problem is obviously your Y/G Escher .... so send it to me and your problems will be over .... but I'm going to be serious. I too am sort of addicted to the HHT. I know it doesn't necessarily matter when it comes to the shave but I can't help myself. Kees if you have DE blades keep one on your countertop for times when your razor won't pass HHT. I've found some hairs that come out of my hair brush that won't pass HHT with a new Feather blade. When I run into one of those I know it is time to grab a different hair. Sometimes that is all it takes.

Interesting about going down in grit to the Tam. I wonder if the coarser Tam, not coarse but coarser than the Escher, is not removing a bit of a wire edge ? I notice that some razors that I've shaved with that don't pass HHT are fine shavers. Close and comfortable. Some that do pass may be harsher but I've pretty much eliminated that. I also agree with Sham's point (hi_bud_gl) that it is hard to really know when to stop. Because of that I too am a stroke counter. Maybe because I learned doing the pyramids. Anyway, it is an interesting and fun pursuit, honing razors.

Not sure how familiar you guys are with re-loading rifle rounds for accuracy, but there is a simple gauge called a Go-NoGo...
It is a cylinder cut and Calibrated to strict SAMMI specs for different calibers... After you set up your reloader and produce your first round you slip it into the Go-NoGo and it it fits flush, you know that it will fit any rifle of that caliber... It doesn't tell you anything else, you don't know how fast or how accurate that round is going to shoot in your rifle, but it is a start...

A Calibrated (Such an Important word) HHT is my Go-NoGo gauge it tells me to try a shave test :) (pull the trigger and see where the round hits on the target)

The problem we have with the HHT is people not understanding the test, or Calibrating it, so it has become a joke anymore... Much the same as not realizing that besides the Go-NoGo there are tons of variables that account for those rounds hitting downrange in a nice tight Sub MOA group :)


All that being said, I hardly ever even use an HHT any longer, once the bevel it truly set, I know exactly where I am on the edge, and just hone it in from there....

I've spent a lot of time calibrating the HHT for my personal honing use. Without it, I wouldn't know when to stop finishing and honing. I guess I could test blades on my face, but I'd run out of lather and face.

One of the issues that has not been addressed much on this forum is what it means to pass the HHT. There is talk of hairs popping and all of that, but the truth is that the test is far more instructive if passing is gauged in grades, not just pass or fail. The test is claimed to not be objective because of differences in hair thickness, stiffness, where it came from etc. In fact, however, that is one of its actual strengths. I think it was over in Badger and Blade that I found a detailed reference on the HHT, including the different levels of passing of hair response to the test, tugging, tearing, cutting completely, etc. When I use the test in my honing, I use various hair types of varying strengths and can tell how the edge is progressing by seeing what hairs are passing the test, which end of the hair will pass it, and exactly how the hair is reacting.

I start to see some kind of passing result at 8K, even more at 12K, but the most dramatic results, with finer hairs, seem to come after stropping, first on linen, then on leather, sometimes as many as 200 passes on smooth leather.

Thanks for you input thusfar. I like the experiment and I do (think I) notice the difference between an HHT positive and an HHT negative edge, but that could be a placebo effect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

can you make this razor pass HHT answer is yes but should you? i don't think so. if you do so you will end up very fragile edge which will shave half of your face for next half you will end up stropping.
hope this helps.

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I never had this problem, I can keep the edge HHT positive for about 5-10 shaves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Interesting about going down in grit to the Tam. I wonder if the coarser Tam, not coarse but coarser than the Escher, is not removing a bit of a wire edge ?

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I think so too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kees

I never had this problem, I can keep the edge HHT positive for about 5-10 shaves.





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I think i wasn't clear enough?
Kees some blades may keep that edge not 5-10 but 30 or 50 shaves.
Some will not pass HHT after for 2 shaves.
I would say don't pay attention to it.I forgot when last time i have tried HHT TEST.
the reason it is not a good test to tell you your blade honed properly or not.
shaving test is different conversation.
I had couple French blades never passed HHT test but was shaving very smooth .
hope i am clear enough now.

Any test needs a baseline.
It makes sense to place a DE or Feather blade
in a cork and keep it handy to calibrate
the hair in question.

Humidity, cleanliness, direction and normal
variability all interact so keeping a standard blade
may prove the best way to calibrate such
a test.

For me the HHT is best used to compare toe
to heal on one edge not razor to razor. A single
hair from my SO's hair brush slides on dull, and
grabs on sharp. Her hair is dark enough that
I can see it... seeing is a big plus as is the length.

hi_bud_gl you're very clear, I appreciate what you mean. I never said the HHT is crucial, I have shaved for many years with razors that cut arm hairs effortlessly but not hanging hairs. Lately I acquired a taste for HHT positive edges. I love to experiment and just wanted to share my experience with everyone interested in honing.

I usually find a strict honing stroke, repeated, is the first key. In the end I often find myself just randomly experimenting with variables to achieve MY HHT. Mine is done with rough gray chest hair and pretty easy to pass. I often find proper use of a strop in the honing mix as part of my final honing. Honestly, if I ever do find a honing recipe I'll just give up honing. WTF would life be like with another fail safe process.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kees

1. why do I get a sharper edge going down the grit ladder?
2. what is your routine that invariably gets you a HHT positive result?

BTW until recently I agreed with those who say that very thin hair is unsuitable for the HHT. Nowadays I feel that if the edge is sharp enough it does not matter what quality hair you use for the HHT.

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You have accepted that the edge is sharper or somehow better at the standard of HHT. Going down in grit makes the edge more aggresive, but does that equate to a better shave for you? If so, it is a good benchmark for what works for you.
As I get more experience, the TPT give me much better feedback to let me know that the edge is ready.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kingfish

You have accepted that the edge is sharper or somehow better at the standard of HHT. Going down in grit makes the edge more aggresive, but does that equate to a better shave for you? If so, it is a good benchmark for what works for you.
As I get more experience, the TPT give me much better feedback to let me know that the edge is ready.

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That's it right there. 'Teeth' reach out and grab a hair that normally wouldn't pass a HHT on a polished edge with fewer teeth. I can get one of MY hairs (like silk) to pass a HHT right off the 8k. After the felt and the leather the HHT fails. Has my blade gotten dull? I don't think so. Are my shaves more comfortable after the felt and the leather? Absolutely.

My thumb and my shaves tell me when an edge needs to revisit the hone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kingfish

Going down in grit makes the edge more aggresive, but does that equate to a better shave for you?

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Yep, bletter shave with edge that passes HHT. I only do ATG pass, the sharper the edge the smoother and faster the shave.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tonycraigo

'Teeth' reach out and grab a hair that normally wouldn't pass a HHT on a polished edge with fewer teeth.

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Kees,

This is why and how edge prefence becomes a personal prefence. All things being equal, and that is a very big assumption, much discussion and money spent for high end finishers is for the last bit of finishing. There is for me a sweet spot somewhere in between aggresive and completly refined. For me it comes naturaly(pun intended) with the finish left by a Jnat or an esher. Electron Micro Pics show the teeth set by a Jnat to look wavey like the way hanging curtains form soft folds, I suspect that an Escher would look similar. On synthetic stones the edge is uniform, but teeth are more angular. I long stopped doing the HHT diagnosticaly, it just did not do it for me.
For your present style of shaving, I can understand how you would like the slightly toothier type of edge.

My hair is pretty fine and is useless for the HHT so I've never used it as a measure. As I move up through the progression I like to do a minimum of 70 laps per stone. After the 70 laps, it's just feel of when to move to the next stone. When I use the Frankonian to finish, I don't count laps at all. It's all feel. When the blade feels like it's sliding on glass, I know that it's pretty good.