I saw in another thread that when it comes to razors made by Case...Glen prefers using the shapton glass hones up to 30k because the steel can handle the edge.
Have you found any other combinations that work particularly well? I've learned, for example, that when finishing big sheffield wedges...I get better results with my CF than with my eschers.
Any combos that you've found work particularly well?
Good call jcsixx. I have heard others talk about this as well and would love to learn more. Unfortunately i am a rookie at honing and cant add to this great thread. But I will be watching for more posts intently.
I can't help out too much either. I have different finishers, but my base system is the norton combo hones.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrilliumLT
Has anybody has problems with the softer steel on waterstones?
Can you be more specific?Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrybyers
I believe the matching issues you are talking about are related to the type of finishing stone used mostly.Quote:
Originally Posted by jcsixx
Any 1-8k progression will work on any steel AFAIK and to my experience.
I have preferences in hones for my various razors.
Razors in the harder end of the spectrum, like some American and Japanese products, seems to get the best edges from my JNats.
The softer steels, like my Sheffields seems to get wicked sharp from Eschers.
And a couple of the extremely hard steels seems to prefer the Charnley Forest or the Gokumyo 20K stone.
I've yet to come across steels that doesn't respond well to my Chosera's, so that's what I use for bevel setting, sharpening and polishing. Then it is on to one or more of the various finishers depending on what razor it is.
I'm sure others have other findings;)
I was just wondering if softer steel shows up more on waterstones, as opposed to hard steel or stainless. Are the steel particles different?Quote:
Originally Posted by jcsixx
Kind of like not using aluminum or brass on a grinder.
You can harden a steel within a range of HRC, so the same steel at HRC 58 will hone easier and you would find it softer, than if it is at HRC 61.Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrybyers
I've got a chosera 1k for setting bevels if that is necessary, a norton 4k and and 8k single grit, and a variety of coticules, eschers and a nakayama asagi. When it comes to he finishers I mostly use one or another of my eschers. As far as matching steel to a type of hone, I haven't found any that needed more than what I currently have and use. YMMV.
While I would agree that some razors may respond better to certain hones, I would also add that the differences are not by any means major, and no particular hones are necessary for any given type of razor. And by the same token, no razor should be impossible to hone well on any given set of hones.
The differences may be in how far you can push the edge on, say, the 4k level (such as Razor X may be a little better off hone y than hone z at the 4k level), or small differences in the finish.
But since many of us on here are into chasing the ultimate edge and not just getting great shaves, the differences in steels/hones comes up with a frequency that makes it look like a bigger deal than it actually is.
Some differences may be due to the hardness or the specific alloy (various stainless, carbon, or regional/age alloys), and probably other variables as well.
That bears repeating, chasing edges is an obsession and has nothing to do with getting a good shave in the morning... To many of us the process is as much if not more fun than the results...Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
Okay...Let's think of this outside of most hones will do their job and give a good edge. As perfectionists...which just seem to match up better. For conversations sake.
Holly and Glen pretty much summed it up, there is no such thing as best, all stones that are considered razor quality by the community will work.Quote:
Originally Posted by jcsixx
For example my 1-12k line up is a mixed bag of choseras, super stones, Norton 4/8k and a shapton GS, I use them however I feel like and always get good results.
For me finishers are another category in its own. I use mainly Jnats and I have not had a razor yet that does not finish well on them, it just comes down to how you use the stone for the particular razor. I have gotten great edges off eschers, CF, and coticules too. So for me pretty much it boils down to what you prefer to using and what kind of edge you like , because IMO that is the difference between Jnat, Escher, Coticule etc. when you deal with finishers.
Moved to the advanced honing section...
Every razor I ever honed worked pretty well with the Norton 1k, 4k, and 8k, except for the Tomahawk razor I bought on eBay. It was a bad eggQuote:
Originally Posted by jcsixx
This is always going to be a "moving target" issue,,,
First there is the differences in the techniques to contend with, so even if you were honing sitting next to me at the table with the same stones we are going to get slightly different results...
Then you have the Natural Stone phenomenon, where regardless if people want to admit it or not no 2 natural stones are the same, ie: Stefan's example of getting great edges on his J-nat doesn't mean anything to the rest of us, as we can't hone on his J-nat... Same as me talking about my J-nat edges doesn't mean much because I ain't selling it :)
Now I could make a general list of where I head with most razors to get the best results according to my customers, and to me, but it just means that is where I go, and it might not work for you even with the same razors and stones...
All that being explained yes razors and stones/hones can be matched to give each individual behind the razors edge the best results... But I doubt many of us will agree on what those combo's are :)
If you look at just the example that you started with which is actually most any NY steel, I head to the Shaptons, you have to understand that the techniques I use on the Shaptons are different than most... If you just take a NY razor and hone it on the Shapton system it doesn't mean you are going to achieves those results, until you work through those tiny nuances to get it there...
I look at three variables we are working with. The person using the razor, the razor itself, and the person behind the stones. I have yet found a good razor that wouldn't shave well off any of the synthetic stones to 8K followed by an Escher, high quality Thuringian, Naniwa 12K or Shapton GS 16K. I follow every blade I hone by stropping on .5 micron diamond on leather (10x) and then plain leather. I have found that the hard steels like TI's, Japanese, and the later razors made here in the US are about the only ones that can handle a Shapton GS 30K. Most English razors I finish on Naniwa 12K, Thuringian, or Escher. I am still learning my Asagi, but have found that I can produce a very nice finished edge with pretty much any German or US razor...but I am still experimenting with my method. As of now, it's a very light slurry of Thuringian/Escher diluted twice, then a clean stone...20x with only the weight of the blade pushing the slurry/water. When I am on the water only pass, the first 10x are with a backstroke.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I hope I haven't muddied the water, but this is what works for me...but I am always learning and trying different things. I too have really been chasing the ultimate edge with each and every razor of my own. I've got to start documenting sometime or another.
I guess you could design some scientific experiment, double blind where you didn't know what razor you were using and what hone you were using and use the precisely similar technique to hone all of them but I think that is impractical since the conditions of the razors and hones could be different or you might be different.
For me in the lower grits I don't think it matters. Once you get to 8K and above I find some razors seem to do better with certain hones but I've never seen any pattern I could ascribe to certain steel or hones or brands on any consistent basis. I agree theoretically it shouldn't matter unless you are using some strange hone with peculiar characteristics and you have a strange razor with matching characteristics but I've never seen this.
I guess in the end this is one of those things we will discuss forever.
Maybe some people just have a "lucky hone".
I'd agree that it is less about the razor/hone interaction and more about the nexus between razor, hone, and honer. And when you start adding individual variations into the mix like that it is no wonder we end up with so many threads and so many varying opinions. And it is probably also why the generally accepted answer to most stone/honing questions boils down to "whatever works for you".
James.
I'm curious about the answers here; would they be different if posted out in the more general honing section? I've made notes over the years about general consensus: e.g., cotis for Sheffield, super-high grits only for New York and TI steels, etc. Why isn't anyone going out on those limbs here?
All I've got now is a chosera 1k, a pair of single grit 4k and 8k nortons, and assorted eschers and coticules. I hone any and all razors with that combination with satisfactory results. YMMV. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by roughkype
I use a Naniwa 2000 for bevel setting, a couple of coticules for honing the blades, and a Naniwa 12000 for final finishing or touch-ups. I have older Sheffields (near wedge or 1/4 hollows) and this combination of stones works great for a comfortable and easy shave.
I've used many different stones on many different razors and for the avg user all seem to do just fine. You will find variances in both stones and razors that don't fit what happened last time, nature of the beast.
However I have come across a few issues that for me always stand true...
King 6k stones don't like stainless steel at all, gunk up really fast.
Shapton Glass stones lean toward stainless and gunk up faster with carbon blades
A few others flip flop around but that is a long battle and most people don't sharpen enough to notice these differences.
The above tests that I did at home and at gatherings was using a combination of razors and kitchen knives of various makes and steels. How any one stone acts verses any one knife or razor can be interpreted differently than how I did, again nature of the beast.
How will your stones handle a life of only doing razors will differ from my stones because of my use with all kinds of knives. A 3" razor sharpened with just the weight of the blade vs a 300mm gyuto with AS steel (that eats stones of all kinds) wears a stone very differently. So any comparisons would have to be tested in alot more controlled circumstances.
Trust me I have been looking for this answer for as long as I have been sharpening knives and everytime I think I have an angle on things something comes along and undoes my past work.
All I can say is that hard steel eats soft stones, and hard stones can trash your edge in a single miss step... After that it's all up in the air :p
Imo, it's a bunch of hooey.
It has some foundation in truth of course. Older Sheffields tend to be a couple of points softer on the rockewell scale than solingen razors. this also makes sheffields more accomodating to hand sanding than solingen razors.
And this also has an effect on honing. Coticules tend to be slower than synthetics. That is why it is probable that a sheffield razor will react quicker to a coticule than a solingen razor. By the same token, the harder edge will have better edge retention, and thus benefits more from high grit finishers, be they natural or synthetic.
There is no magic to it, and generally speaking you can hone all razors with all hones. The difference in hardness just causes the razors to abrade at a different speed, and retain thinner edges.
Because there are only a handful of honers who hone so many razors that they can tell the difference. You have to hone a lot, and get very proficient with the hones to get a razor to its maximum EVERY TIME. If you are not absolutely sure that you got everything out of a razor you honed, than you cannot tell if the problem was you, the hone, or the razor. We have only a few people who hone that much, that they are absolutely sure in their skills, and their hones, so the only variable is the razor. The average straight razor user (99% of all people), with 20-200 razors more likely won't notice a difference between the max sharpness of different steels. And the truth is, if I can trust the more experienced members, than the differences are so subtle, that they really don't matter that much. Sheffields have the oldest and maybe the "worst" quality steel of all, did you ever see someone who said that his Greaves or Joseph Rodgers didn't shave well?Quote:
Originally Posted by roughkype
Yes and no. I wouldn't confuse a professional (one that earns money for his trade) with an expert. While they may be one in the same, not all experts are professionals and not all professionals are experts. I'm willing to bet that the so-called "experts" don't hit a homerun every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeness
I have noticed in quite of few threads that the standard response has become to send the razor out to a professional before looking at any other variables. Yes, it's nice to eliminate the sharpness variable, but not all "shave-ready" razors are shave ready, or comfortable, for an individual.
IMO, the secrets to honing are not held by a mere few. These proclaimed "experts" are quicker to identify the problem blade or bring it into submission, but honing can be mastered to one's satisfaction by understanding the physics and techniques needed to achieve a sharp and comfortable blade.
Sorry, no offense to various honing "experts" on the board.
I agree with your comments around pros and experts. I am one of the ones that suggest a professional honing to noobs. It is the best way to word the statement and the best chance for success for noobs. The choice of the perm professional reduces the chance of a person sending their razor to a member that is learning honing or over confident of their results. We have had a few of them as members here. Each professional honed edge will differ from person to person and sometimes from the same person but most will give a good shave. If someone wants the best shave possible for themselves they need to learn to hone their own blades.Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrybyers
As for matching the hone to the razor, yes it does make a difference. Some hones more than others. Also, most of the hones recommended on SRP will get the job done and done right. Matching the hone to a razor is an advanced topic and really doesn't add any value at the basic honing level or at a low volume level. If you are only honing a few razors a week or a few a year use the hone you have at hand that meets the general requirements. It may take a little longer but it will give a shave ready edge if used properly. Doing a bunch of razors a day or an hour, matching the hone to the steel will be worth the cost in hones. I don't have a shop full of hone at each grit, I have two or three and they get the job done. On the same note, I pay close attention to all feedback I get while honing and I can see, hear and feel when one hone works better on a razor than another and have learned the signs to know when to switch to another hone. Some people enjoy the journey, some just want to get to the destination. I enjoy the journey but if it is taking too long I start looking for the destination and start focusing on what will get me there.
In the end, remember to have fun with your straight razor sporting and everything will come into perspective.
Shave ready, and max sharpness are two different things. Anyone can get a razor shave ready, and only a "few" of them can attain the maximum that a razor is capable of. You don't have to hone for others to attain this, but you have to hone a lot. I hone a lot, and I have honed maybe more than 200 razors until now, and I wouldn't say that I can get out the max sharpness of any of them. At this time, anyone could tell me that x hone is better for y brand, I couldn't tell the difference. If a finisher is not chipping an edge, or doing any other damage to it, than the limiting factor in the final edge will be my skill, not the finisher used, or the steel of that particular razor.
I get good results with the Y/G Escher and Nakayama on most razors. One exception: the TI Silverwing. I cannot get it to pass the hanging hair test with the Escher nor the Nakayama. I finish it on a purple-coloured anonymous hone, followed by a piece of wood painted with CBN spray.
try softer Jnat, in general very hard steels really benefit from softer stones, and softer steels benefit from harder stones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
This certainly is the general rule especially when polishing Nihonto & houcho, however, I have found the opposite to also hold true when honing razors. Hard stones can also be abrasive like the Shapton Pro & be faster to set bevels on hard steel rather than say soft Kings. Hard finishers like Asagi also work well on hard steel IME as long as the steel is well forged & not simply brittle from poor tempering etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
yes but a hard aggressive stone will ruin an edge easy if one is not careful, on another hand using softer stone ensures less problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
That's the other thing to match. Stone, steel & user :)