The Finished Edge

For a long time now I have been looking at edges after coming off the hones sometimes with a final pasting and sometimes just the hones. I have kept the microscope at 40X and I continue to see the same phenomena. Quite a few of the razors under the microscope look like they have a foiling which has taken place. There are little shiny sparkelies all along the edge. I cannot feel or see any burr so to speak, but these things show up a lot. If I take the razor before stropping and try to shave with it, it will cut the whisker but is really uncomfortable.

Once I strop on leather and then look at the razor under the scope the sparklies are gone and I get a very clean crisp looking edge. Lately, I have been stropping on the poly-webbing first and then the leather so that all those little fragments don't gunk up my strops. The shave after stropping is then always nice and comfortable unless I missed something and have to do a little further honing.

So what do you guys think is going on? Anyone experiencing the same thing?

This should be a fun discussion.

That is somewhat what i was talking about in my post " stropping after honing" i dont know about the sparklies but i do know that after honing the shave was really uncomfortable but after good stropping very smooth.

I've seen the "sparklies", not a sign of the bevel not being set, but definitely something going on with the edge. I've seen it on razors
that were deeply pitted and the pits became revealed in the honing. I've also seen it appear out of nowhere on a blade that had looked
just fine. I rehoned that blade yesterday and now it's fine. I suspected at first that stropping on linen too forcefully might have caused
it, but I'm not sure. I'll do some experimenting on linen if I see them appear again. Great subject!

This may sound, and be dumb, but I read some old posts about using earth magnets to hold a razor down when buffing, etc. during restore. I thought then that it might cause a problem when honing because metal objects will take a small magnetic field when exposed to a magnet. Thus causing fine pieces of honed metal to affix to the blade. Could some of these razors be exposed to a magnet such as being stored very near the magnetic paddle strops, etc.? That would account for the sparklies and probably an abrasive shave, and would brush off during stropping Just a thought. Howard

I have noticed this at times, but have never thought it through. Certainly a good observation. One possibility is that when honing, the edge is held flat with very light pressure or just the pressure of the razor itself. Also there is usually water involved so there is no friction heat. Since the cutting edge at this point is virtually microscopic, it contracts slightly when the pressure is off and causes some
"wrinkling" of the very fine edge due to internal stresses of the steel. Could it be that the light at a microscopic level is hitting the valleys of the "wrinkles" and showing up as a sparkle. Then, once you hit the canvas and leather, it calms them through the friction, slight heat and realigning effect of the edge.

Don't know if I articulated all that right but just my thoughts.

Best Regards
Kenny

I don't know this, so I may be wrong, but I assume that honing creates a fine burr on the edge of the blade. (Such a burr could sparkle under light I suppose.) I was always taught that the purpose of stropping was to remove the burr.

I usually assume my razor is shave-ready when it starts to feel a little 'sticky' while stropping. I assume this means the burr has been removed and the edge is smooth and 'sticking' to the strop better.

BWTFDIK?

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Originally Posted by Lynn

So what do you guys think is going on? Anyone experiencing the same thing?

This should be a fun discussion.

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Lynn, if you don't mind, what is the final pasting you mentioned that still shows the same edge at 40x - is that stropping on an abrasive felt paddle strop?

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Lynn, if you don't mind, what is the final pasting you mentioned that still shows the same edge at 40x - is that stropping on an abrasive felt paddle strop?

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It is usually the same with chromium oxide, on poly webbing, linen or leather, or sprayed on hard felt or .5 diamond spray on felt.

Lynn. I recommend you try getting a shave ready edge off your 8k before using pastes. Maybe see if you can meet with a honemiester in your area....

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Lynn. I recommend you try getting a shave ready edge off your 8k before using pastes. Maybe see if you can meet with a honemiester in your area....

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I almost fell off my chair after reading this :)

I have seen this also but not all the time. It usually occurs during the 8k stage. In my mind this is the edge getting so thin that it is starting to bend just a little and reflecting the light at a different angle . The subsequent laps on the abrasive pasted paddle strop usually remove it.

I think it is a form of micro-burr which may sometimes be related to bevel geometry &/or steel quality or maybe that the razor is what I call "9/10 broke" i.e. as sharp as possible before edge breakdown.

It may be what Iwasaki referred to as the "False Edge" ?

Lynn!

This is a fascinating post!! I don't have access to extreme magnification, however I'll follow closely just to become more educated!

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

The subsequent laps on the abrasive pasted paddle strop usually remove it.

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That is what I thought too, but I guess I have not been paying very close attention

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

I think it is a form of micro-burr which may sometimes be related to bevel geometry &/or steel quality or maybe that the razor is what I call "9/10 broke" i.e. as sharp as possible before edge breakdown.

It may be what Iwasaki referred to as the "False Edge" ?

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I've sort of noticed this too--I don't really see any sparklies under 60x (the lowest setting of the Radio SHack scope I have), but I definitely notice my edges feel smoother & for sure sharper after a good linen/leather stropping 30/60 or so. THey also pop hairs much more effortlessly.

I've actually been using a little bit more pressure stropping than normal on the first 20 or so strokes on leather, then going to normal for the remainder--for some reason that really helps perfect the edge for me. I figure either I'm shaping the edge just a touch more (Hamaguriba, I think it's called) or I'm slightly overdoing finishing & the stropping cleans the edge up. I tried stropping normal pressure only after honing & couldn't really tell a difference between that & straight off the hone w/ no stropping, so the few strokes w/ pressure definitely is doing something.

Stropping like this before every shave however will dull the blade rapidly (3 shaves max); I only do this for 20 or so strokes right off the hone & always strop normally otherwise.

So I read the article because I have been hunting for advice on calming down my edge off a Norton 8k (my lowest grit stone). I get the edge tree topping after 8k, then nailing it after green and red paste on balsa. I know the blade is sharp because I have shaved with it and compared it to others sharpened by my betters and it does the trick although not as refined. This time I did 100 on red (no green) then 200 on the paddle strop. The edge was no longer passing the hanging hair test with SWMBO's hair but shaved without the usual break in period of about a week. This one worked for me thanks guys.

I'm glad to read that this is more common than what I thought. I have notice the exact same thing as Lynn has. I thought I was over honing at first, but after my regular paste and trop they where gone and the shave was as good as any other good shave. What I further notice when I first observed it, was that after the shave and before the strop (used a tp to clean the edge after water), I could see the sparklies in some small areas of the edge again, stropped and they where gone!

I like the theory of micro bur, or almost failing edge (9/10). The false edge have a Japanese mystique to it that I also like. But like many fishing books I have read and all the fishing I've done and still do, we tend to have theories of why the fish act like they do, but the truth is we don't know for sure, only God knows! I'm beginning to feel the same way with honing!

Looking forward to reading more theories. Double O

If I may offer some obervations...

I was sharpening a razor over this last weekend (progression can be seen here) and I found something out very interesting (unfortunately I did not get a photo, I will try to next time though). Lynn, I think what you are experiencing has to do with edge leading or edge trailing passes on your stones. When I did edge trailing passes and took a photograph I could see this wire/foil edge that was created at the very edge of the edge... when I did edge leading passes it disappeared.

Apparently there is some merrit to this as well... I am sure you have seen Dr. Verhoeven's paper, but if you scroll down to page 22 Dr. Verhoeven makes this observation:

"All of the sharpening done on the waterstones moved the blade along the stone in
the direction into the blade edge causing the abrasive debris to move away from the edge.
It was theorized that moving in this direction would reduce the bur size at the edge by
preventing the debris from being deposited along the edge. To see if this theory was
supported by evidence an experiment was done on the 6000 grit waterstone where the 10
4-stroke cycles were all done with the blade edge moving away-from rather than into the
stone surface. The results are shown in Fig. 27. Comparing Figs 25 and 27 one sees that
moving the blade away-from the edge, as in Fig. 27, does seem to produce a significantly
larger bur than moving it into the edge, as in Fig. 25. The larger bur is also accompanied
by an increase in edge roughness, as shown in the face views."

I know people like Murray Carter (hated here probably) among others advocates edge trailing passes when you get to the higher grit stones, but I am beginning to think this is counter productive. Maybe you can weigh in and offer some experimentation yourself? Hope this helps...

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Lynn. I recommend you try getting a shave ready edge off your 8k before using pastes. Maybe see if you can meet with a honemiester in your area....

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Ahhahhahhaaaah! :roflmao

For those that need a little pick me up giggle. ;)

Lynn,

Are you coming off synthetics? I have heard some reports of this type of phenomenon that you don't get with a natural that slurries like a JNat or some coticules. Maybe try that and see if you still get the sparkles.

i believe the idea is that some slurry will wear the tiny foil edge off. You might try following a sparkly with a JNat and see if it changes.

Cheers, Steve

I have seen this on my synthetics also - but never on a slurry stone.

This is a reply to Sigoy. Why post this. It doesn't add anything subnative to this great discussion, just a laugh at someone else's expense.

[EDIT] Please [/EDIT] Read the thread again, joe. There was alot of humor in it. I'm not laughing at anybody's expense, but at the humor of an earlier poster. [EDIT] I hope you have a laugh as well [/EDIT]

Happy Shaves!

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Originally Posted by wildfirejoe00

This is a reply to Sigoy. Why post this. It doesn't add anything subnative to this great discussion, just a laugh at someone else's expense.

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I'm pretty sure Lynn can handle it. If you do a bit more reading here you will learn that we don't always take ourselves too seriously.

To quote Lynn,

Have fun!

I definitely experience the same Lynn. My linen of my scotch lassie was freshly flipped and white 6 months ago, now it is turning black!

I assume these are the steel particles you are referring to. I don't use pressure either, regular stropping has this effect.

I can't believe I missed this discussion!!

In my experience the edge, especially off of natural stones, has the little "foils" that lynn talks about, and I never shave with a razor that hasn't been stropped. If those foils are not serious defects, but just particles hanging on from the regular honing, off they go and the edge left behind is thin and shaves like a champ.

Different stones do different things with the "foils".

I also use a vintage linen, like Dire says above about the scotch lassie. Before I even go to my linen, I wipe the razor off to take metal particles off of it as much as I can strictly because those little foils and other metal particles end up on the linen, and those particles will work as an abrasive themselves on a razor. After two or three years, my silk finish linen is just starting to get some dark spots on it, and those dark spots grow quickly once they're there. Iron oxide is somewhere in the neighborhood of hardened steel in mohs, so little particles of razor steel can definitely abrade razor (no ill effect that I can see yet, though).

When we talk about various levels of stones here and shaving right off of them (the low grit stones particularly), I'm always a bit in the weeds for that discussion, because they all leave some foreign particles, and you can be thrown two ways by the effect of those - they may seem less sharp than the razor, or sometimes create a "false edge" that seems sharp if the foiling cuts hair (they call that a false edge in woodworking, because you test it, and then put it to the wood and it's gone immediately).

I'm no honemeister, and my objective shaving is to shave more hone less (which the vintage linen facilitates for a very long time), but when I do hone, I always test the "shaving" edge after stropping, never right off the stone.

I feel much the same Dave, always assumed the sparklies were little bits of foil or wire edge. I have only ever noticed them on non-slurry stones though. I also find testing the edge before stropping to be not very informative. Some few stones will manage well without stropping but others absolutely need stropping before testing and shaving. All are improved by it regardless. As far as the particles getting on the linen, I always give my razors a quick scrub with some hand soap after honing and before stropping.

I agree on the slurry - stones with slurry (or loose abrasive on a strop) seems to scrub the particles off right away.

I guess if there's a particle party and a no particle party, I'm part of the particle party (because I prefer the "clear water" or clear oil no slurry type finishers that do make that particles still on type of edge).