The multi-bevel micro-bevel challenge!

Since there seemed to be a bit of curiosity about trying different methods of using a dual bevel or even a multi-bevel honing method, I have decided I would see if I could gather a few different people who might want to participate and report the methods and results of their work/experiment. I want to do this simply out of curiosity, and this is my first time doing something like this.

What the "challenge" entails:

1. Based on the unicot method, honing a razor with more than just one bevel by taping the spine anywhere after the initial first setting of the bevel. (or by adding an extra piece of tape for those who always tape there spines) You may try more than 2 bevels also.

2. Stropping with no pastes or powders as it would not give any conclusive results.

3. Report back with any information you found from the experiment by using any tests you deem necessary. (hanging hair tests, shave test, etc) Or even better microscopic pics.

So if you would like to participate in this group experiment feel free to say so, the more the better!

I really like this idea, and would be all in if we could wait until maybe Mar 1st so we could get JaNorton outta the system having Feb to relax :)

Some ideas:

A four razor rotation all done on the same final finisher all as close to each other as possible to nail down the edge and not the razor..

Example:

If I were going to test this, I would use 4 NY extreme hollows, all by the same company, and do two with my normal routine, and two with a double bevel all on the Shapton 30k and rotate the shaves to see if there is a discernable difference throughout a month of shaving...


BTW ( Tim Zowada introduced the Double bevel style of honing for SR's, AFAIK, just giving credit where credit is due)

Actually, the multi bevel or micro bevel was introduced simply by the use of tape to protect the damascus pattern on the spine of razors. The micro bevel was found on microscopic examination after. The rest is pretty much history. From a shaving standpoint and with thousands of razors tested, I have not found any benefit yet from it's intentional use. But, more experimentation is always fun. Love the diagrams.

Intentional micro bevels on razors with a lot of spine wear that is not the same on both sides can be problematic as the uneven wear is still reflected in the edge of the razor. So in most cases you are still going to need a rolling X stroke or exaggerated 45 degree angle stroke. With razors in better condition, the micro bevel is much easier to apply.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I really like this idea, and would be all in if we could wait until maybe Mar 1st so we could get JaNorton outta the system having Feb to relax :)

Some ideas:

A four razor rotation all done on the same final finisher all as close to each other as possible to nail down the edge and not the razor..

Example:

If I were going to test this, I would use 4 NY extreme hollows, all by the same company, and do two with my normal routine, and two with a double bevel all on the Shapton 30k and rotate the shaves to see if there is a discernable difference throughout a month of shaving...


BTW ( Tim Zowada introduced the Double bevel style of honing for SR's, AFAIK, just giving credit where credit is due)

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Actually if everyone would like, we could just collect people who would like to be in on this challenge until the end of January.

In on the Challenge

xMackx
gssixgun
Danricgo
jeness

Count me in, and if I have your premission, I will edit in the list to your "List" post, much like I did for the JaNorton thread and keep updating it for you as they join in :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Count me in, and if I have your premission, I will edit in the list to your "List" post, much like I did for the JaNorton thread and keep updating it for you as they join in :)

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Go right ahead Glen, makes it easier for me. :)

Count me in. I am a bit confused, when does it start?

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Originally Posted by Danricgro

Count me in. I am a bit confused, when does it start?

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When February starts, so two weeks from now.

Nice. I have two Dove best razors I can compare to each other and a couple of Torrey's that are almost identical I can use. Hopefully these will work.

Count me too, I will try it on a few razors. I will hone them up to 8k, shave, and then add 1-2 layers of tape, and test again. Maybe we will find out some interesting stuff if a lot of us begin to experiment, maybe not. Honing is a fun hobby.

I've got 2 Henckels Friodur INOX with the factory edges. Could hone one normal and one with a double bevel. If that's OK, count me in!

Howard

I know we have not started yet but I was having trouble getting a really decent edge on a nice Shumate yesterday. I took through my Naniwa SS progression and finished on my Ozuku Asagi I got from Maxim. The shave was ok, but not great. I tried some .5 diamond spray on hard felt and it improved but still not quite there. I figured what the heck, I put two layers of tape on it and did 15 light laps on water on my Asagi then 60 laps on linen and 80 on leather. I just got done shaving with it. Great shave, nice and sharp and very smooth.

Now what does it all mean? Nothing really, it might have been just as good without the tape. I am really looking forward to doing some experimenting with multi bevels. The theory behind it makes sense to me. If nothing else it is another tool for when you are having trouble.

By the way, anyone can participate in this experiment. If you don't have more than one identical razor I wont discriminate. Any experimentation is a good thing when trying to learn. :)

Since you guys called the current one Janorton, I think we should call this one Micro-Beval February 2012. :y

I do love the micro bevel system for some razors, IMHO, it does do as stated further up the line of this thread to help out some of those stuborn St8's, I have two that have a whole LOT of spine wear and as it follows fairly wide bevels, as a result I did put the best 1k bevel I could on them with one layer of tape and then for the finishing stage I put on 2 more layers and used a light touch to make certain of an even edge.
Maybe not news to the more experianced, but it tickled me no end when I FINALLY figured that one out.

YMMV, have a good one, tinkersd.

This is a great idea. You may count me in with a DOVO best carbon and a DOVO INOX stainless. Both are 5/8". Both are in great shaving form with no micro-bevel.

COMMENTARY and SUGGESTIONS: My research on razor blade manufacturing reveals a three bevel process of ~325, 550, and 800 grit stages. Of course they use coatings which fill-in the scratch marks and smooth the final edge. Each stage is at a slightly higher angle. This is not what I would suggest with this exercise. The SR really just needs the final grit to create the micro-bevel, typically 8K or finer. My experience with micro-bevels is similar to Lynn in that I have tried with and without and obtained comparable results. However, I think the micro-bevel approach may have merit for first time honers in that it almost guarantees that you are hitting the edge the full length of the blade. You still need to lay down a solid primary bevel before applying the tape. I will also skip the CrO to make sure that is not a variable. Here are the steps that I will perform.

1) Create the primary with 4k, 8K, and 12K stones (I rarely need the 1K), using no tape

2) Apply one layer of tape, then 30 or more laps on the 12k until the micro-bevel is clearly visible under 20X loupe.

3) Strop for 60-80 laps on leather, remove tape, HHT, then shave test

4) Report back on the results as WORSE, EQUIVALENT, or BETTER when compared to the single primary.

Can you see the Micro bevel at 20 X,Zowada says not,I cannot see it at 80X.

He is probably right for most loupes. The 20x level is the minimum magnification for sure, but you can definitely see the micro-bevel at 20X under certain conditions.

1) Get an excellent loupe. I use the famous, color true, gemologists loupe from Belomo. The FOV is wide and much clearer than cheaper 20x models which I have used and could not see Jack, much less a micro-bevel. I have a microscope to compare this magnification, but I prefer the speed and convenience of a loupe. I can examine the full length of the blade in less than a minute with a loupe.

2) Experience, angle, and lighting are crucial. I have attached a direct/indirect adjustable LED that lights the bevel in variable ways.

3) It is inconvenient, but natural lighting can be BIG plus if you can manage it.

4) Lastly, if you only do 10 laps on a 12k you will not see the micro-bevel unless you are at 100x or more. At these grit levels you really need to go 40 plus laps before the width is visible at 20x magnification. If you can't see it at 20x then you may not have hit the full length of the blade. But if you can just see it at 20x you can be sure that you have created a full micro-bevel.

Of course, if you have anything greater than 20x then by all means use it. :)

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Originally Posted by Gammaray

He is probably right for most loupes. The 20x level is the minimum magnification for sure, but you can definitely see the micro-bevel at 20X under certain conditions.

1) Get an excellent loupe. I use the famous, color true, gemologists loupe from Belomo. The FOV is wide and much clearer than cheaper 20x models which I have used and could not see Jack, much less a micro-bevel. I have a microscope to compare this magnification, but I prefer the speed and convenience of a loupe. I can examine the full length of the blade in less than a minute with a loupe.

2) Experience, angle, and lighting are crucial. I have attached a direct/indirect adjustable LED that lights the bevel in variable ways.

3) It is inconvenient, but natural lighting can be BIG plus if you can manage it.

4) Lastly, if you only do 10 laps on a 12k you will not see the micro-bevel unless you are at 100x or more. At these grit levels you really need to go 40 plus laps before the width is visible at 20x magnification. If you can't see it at 20x then you may not have hit the full length of the blade. But if you can just see it at 20x you can be sure that you have created a full micro-bevel.

Of course, if you have anything greater than 20x then by all means use it. :)

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I work quite a bit with micro bevels, I can tell you that 40 laps on a fast cutting high grit synthetic stones could be bad for a good shave.

You may be right about the 40 laps for your technique, but not for mine. The pressure and angle (1 or 2 tape layers) plays an important role in determining the lap number. My Naniwa 12k does a beautiful job laying down a shave ready micro-bevel using very light pressure in ~40 laps. Some users may need less than this. Thanks for the clarification.

With 10-20 light laps on a 10-12k Naniwa, I have a microbevel thats easily spotted even at 64x magnification, with 1 bonus layer of tape.

Did anything ever happen with this challenge? Did the results get posted somewhere else?

I think it died out

But I will post a success story for you :)

I rarely ever use Micro-bevels, haven't found much use for them,,, But I got in a TZ custom Damascus a couple of months ago that the owner requested that I use the Full Shapton set and to re-create a Double bevel on it ..

I took it through the 8k level with a single layer of tape, and then instead of only doing a second bevel on the 30k I decided to try it on the 16k and then continue to the 30k.. It worked like a champ, put on the 2 layers of tape did 20 light laps on the 16k and then 6 laps on the 30k gave it a very smooth edge... I felt that is "Defined" the secondary bevel a bit more :shrug:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think it died out

But I will post a success story for you :)

I rarely ever use Micro-bevels, haven't found much use for them,,, But I got in a TZ custom Damascus a couple of months ago that the owner requested that I use the Full Shapton set and to re-create a Double bevel on it ..

I took it through the 8k level with a single layer of tape, and then instead of only doing a second bevel on the 30k I decided to try it on the 16k and then continue to the 30k.. It worked like a champ, put on the 2 layers of tape did 20 light laps on the 16k and then 6 laps on the 30k gave it a very smooth edge... I felt that is "Defined" the secondary bevel a bit more :shrug:

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The reason I did the search on the micro bevel and landed on this thread was because I was emailing both you and Stefan about a couple problematic blades that I simply could not seem to make any headway with. Stefan suggested adding another layer of tape to create a micro bevel. POW! Success. I had been honing away on both of these razors for quite a while. Bevels were set. But I simply could not get that level of sharpness I was looking for. In the process I was watching the edges with a microscope. I could see them changing. They would go from invisible edges to that defined white-line edge but there never seemed to be any sharpness. The line would get honed away and it would begin again, never reaching any level of sharpness. I put another layer of tape on at the 8k stage and suddenly it came right around. On to a 12k and it was VERY sharp indeed. I tested it with my shave this morning and it was good. Finally success. The other one still needs to be evaluated and perhaps needs a little push. I don’t think I’d do this every time but when I run into this problem again, I’ll have something to answer it with.

I guess the question that jumps straight to my OCD brain, is "Was it the double bevel, or was it simply the steeper bevel that did the trick" would you get the same outcome if you simply honed with 2 layers of tape from the get go ???? You now have the next experiment hehehehe

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I guess the question that jumps straight to my OCD brain, is "Was it the double bevel, or was it simply the steeper bevel that did the trick" would you get the same outcome if you simply honed with 2 layers of tape from the get go ???? You now have the next experiment hehehehe

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I went with the assumption that it was just the steeper bevel that did it but I can't say for sure. I was simply happy to finally get a sharp edge after having worked for quite some time with little success. I suppose it could be verified by resetting the bevel with two layers of tape and see if it hones sharp.

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

The reason I did the search on the micro bevel and landed on this thread was because I was emailing both you and Stefan about a couple problematic blades that I simply could not seem to make any headway with. Stefan suggested adding another layer of tape to create a micro bevel. POW! Success. I had been honing away on both of these razors for quite a while. Bevels were set. But I simply could not get that level of sharpness I was looking for. In the process I was watching the edges with a microscope. I could see them changing. They would go from invisible edges to that defined white-line edge but there never seemed to be any sharpness. The line would get honed away and it would begin again, never reaching any level of sharpness. I put another layer of tape on at the 8k stage and suddenly it came right around. On to a 12k and it was VERY sharp indeed. I tested it with my shave this morning and it was good. Finally success. The other one still needs to be evaluated and perhaps needs a little push. I don’t think I’d do this every time but when I run into this problem again, I’ll have something to answer it with.

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On the problem razors, I would love to see pictures of them when we discuss them here. Unless the micro bevel is being done on non problematic razors like to preserve a damascus pattern or simply personal preference. I usually find that the need for tape is because a razor is way out of what and that usually is heavily and unevenly flattened and where the uneven flattening and the uneven flattening is not the same on both sides. These are crazy hard razors for new people to take on and can be very frustrating sometimes to those of us who have honed a few razors. Many times people declare these razor warped and they can take hours of repair time to get the entire edge to a point where it will come in contact with the stone. An alternative is a rolling X which may work fairly quick depending on the razor or again, take hours to get right. Another alternative is the micro bevel created by taping the razor. Usually one layer of tape will only reflect the damage in the spine and bevel, so you need to build up to 2 or 3 layers and I have seen people do a 4th layer as well. Simply speaking, all you are doing is changing the geometry of the razor to create a bevel which will produce a shavable edge. Personally, I have found that some micro bevels produce an edge that does not last as long on some razors as others and I haven't figured that out yet. There are a ton of ways to skin the proverbial cat and it's good to have all of them in your arsenal as there are a ton of funky razors out there that can still be made to shave if those are the kind of razors you like. It would just be fun to see some of them as we discuss them up front.

What is interesting is that you can definitely create these micro bevels at any stage in the game if you have the time to play with them and get most to produce a decent shave. I have found that you can hone a decent razor with no tape and then put tape on at the finishing stone. You can start with one layer and go to two layers. Two layers and go to three layers and three going to four. Never went beyond that but all have produced shaving edges so far. The fun begins when switching from a razor in good shave to one that has poor wear we often discuss. Worth the endeavor though if ya just gots ta knows..........:beer1:

Have fun

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Originally Posted by Lynn

On the problem razors, I would love to see pictures of them when we discuss them here. Unless the micro bevel is being done on non problematic razors like to preserve a damascus pattern or simply personal preference. I usually find that the need for tape is because a razor is way out of what and that usually is heavily and unevenly flattened and where the uneven flattening and the uneven flattening is not the same on both sides. These are crazy hard razors for new people to take on and can be very frustrating sometimes to those of us who have honed a few razors. Many times people declare these razor warped and they can take hours of repair time to get the entire edge to a point where it will come in contact with the stone. An alternative is a rolling X which may work fairly quick depending on the razor or again, take hours to get right. Another alternative is the micro bevel created by taping the razor. Usually one layer of tape will only reflect the damage in the spine and bevel, so you need to build up to 2 or 3 layers and I have seen people do a 4th layer as well. Simply speaking, all you are doing is changing the geometry of the razor to create a bevel which will produce a shavable edge. Personally, I have found that some micro bevels produce an edge that does not last as long on some razors as others and I haven't figured that out yet. There are a ton of ways to skin the proverbial cat and it's good to have all of them in your arsenal as there are a ton of funky razors out there that can still be made to shave if those are the kind of razors you like. It would just be fun to see some of them as we discuss them up front.

What is interesting is that you can definitely create these micro bevels at any stage in the game if you have the time to play with them and get most to produce a decent shave. I have found that you can hone a decent razor with no tape and then put tape on at the finishing stone. You can start with one layer and go to two layers. Two layers and go to three layers and three going to four. Never went beyond that but all have produced shaving edges so far. The fun begins when switching from a razor in good shave to one that has poor wear we often discuss. Worth the endeavor though if ya just gots ta knows..........:beer1:

Have fun

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Thanks for the added information. No, I didn't post a pic but I'm not sure there was much to get from one. The blade in question was one I picked up off of eBay. It needed a little work in that it had some MINOR rust on the spine and a couple very tiny chips in whatever bevel was there to start with. But beyond that, it gave the impression of a razor that was really never used. No real hone wear detectable at all. It is a Bengall 6/8. It looked like it simply sat around for a long time being neglected. I removed the rust with some high grit sandpaper and put it on a 1k to remove the chips and set the bevel. The bevel passed the thumb nail test and some of the usual shave tests. I ran into problems after that in that the 8k did not seem to get it as sharp as I would have expected. On and on I went going back between 4k and 8k (straight up and pyramids) to try to get it sharp but it would only go so far before it fell apart. The second layer of tape seemed to solve it although it still needs to be tested. But the symptoms seem to be moving in the right direction. I’ll leave the analysis to you two gents as you’ve had more experience with the how’s and why’s of all of this. I was simply grateful to see some progress at this point.

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

Thanks for the added information. No, I didn't post a pic but I'm not sure there was much to get from one. The blade in question was one I picked up off of eBay. It needed a little work in that it had some MINOR rust on the spine and a couple very tiny chips in whatever bevel was there to start with. But beyond that, it gave the impression of a razor that was really never used. No real hone wear detectable at all. It is a Bengall 6/8. It looked like it simply sat around for a long time being neglected. I removed the rust with some high grit sandpaper and put it on a 1k to remove the chips and set the bevel. The bevel passed the thumb nail test and some of the usual shave tests. I ran into problems after that in that the 8k did not seem to get it as sharp as I would have expected. On and on I went going back between 4k and 8k (straight up and pyramids) to try to get it sharp but it would only go so far before it fell apart. The second layer of tape seemed to solve it although it still needs to be tested. But the symptoms seem to be moving in the right direction. I’ll leave the analysis to you two gents as you’ve had more experience with the how’s and why’s of all of this. I was simply grateful to see some progress at this point.

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What you are describing is something that actually can be problematic. A lot of old razors especially ones that have accumulated some rusting are hard to keep an edge on. Under the microscope, I have seen many of these where the bevel looks great to the naked eye, but have significant pitting or disintegration going on a the edge. So every time your re-set a bevel trying to get past the rusting or micro pitting more pops up. Sometimes a micro bevel can help in this situation, sometimes not and you just need to get to an un-infected layer of metal where the edge will hold up.

Have fun.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

What you are describing is something that actually can be problematic. A lot of old razors especially ones that have accumulated some rusting are hard to keep an edge on. Under the microscope, I have seen many of these where the bevel looks great to the naked eye, but have significant pitting or disintegration going on a the edge. So every time your re-set a bevel trying to get past the rusting or micro pitting more pops up. Sometimes a micro bevel can help in this situation, sometimes not and you just need to get to an un-infected layer of metal where the edge will hold up.

Have fun.

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I have a small microscope that I have been watching it with. It about 100X. I didn't detect anything that looked like pitting on the cutting edge. But again, my knowledge of restoration does not extend beyond my attempt to remove the rust on this one with some high grit sandpaper and metal polish. The other razor that I was having problems with was brand new so I know that pitting and rust were not a problem. Both of them hit a wall at a certain level (or lack of) sharpness but surpassed it with that extra layer of tape. :shrug: In any case, it seems as though its an added trick when nothing else seems to help......for right now anyway. Thank you for tip!

To easily see a micro bevel, even without magnification, paint the bevel with a sharpie.