Honing with/without tape... Testing the theories

Facts = doing actual tests instead of just doing theory and typing :dropjaw:

First let me say I could not care less if you tape or not, they are your razors doesn't make any difference to me

But what I hate reading is statements from people that haven't tested things themselves..

One of the statements that gets me is this one, that comes up in every single tape-vs-no tape thread...

"If you hone with tape it will change the angle of the razor that is built in by the maker over time"

That statement is true, I am not saying it isn't....It is very simple, as the edge and spine wear down (key word here) equally the angle should stay the same over time..
The trick comes in with the equally and the amount of time part of the statement...

Enter The Test Razor:

Attachment 94482


Attachment 94481


I bought this 5 years ago right before I joined SRP the razor was honed by it's first owner without tape, it has been my goto test bed razor for most every dumb thing I can think of and most every new stone I buy.. It was my test razor for the Diamond Paste stropping experiment and it is being tested right now on the WHIG's,,,, in between the Purple WHIG and the Green WHIG it hit 30 honing cycles by me..

I decided to use it to test the "Tape Theory"
Since I am not going to have the years required to do this I used the "Excessively Honed Razor" instead..

The razor has gone through 30 full honings since I have owned it so maybe 31 or 32 total, it has always been honed with tape by me, 1 layer of Scotch #700 3M electrical tape. When I say "Full Honings" I mean from a new bevel set, so these are not what the normal user would do with just refreshing it lightly..

The numbers are after 3 times measuring with my good calipers using the same method we used back here many thanks to Gugi for the math :tu

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...zor-angle.html

(2 * asin(.181 / (2 * .620)) * 180) / pi = 16.786646

So after 30+ full honing cycles the angle hasn't even gone over the 17 degree mark yet... Just how long does it take when honing with tape to wreck the angle??? Considering we had razors in that old thread that shaved from 12 degrees to 24 degrees I probably won't be finding out because after 30 honing cycles I probably have not even gone through 1/64 of an inch :shrug: So let's go forward 60 more honing cycles at this rate and say it goes to a 4/8 which is a bit of a stretch considering the wear so far, but lets just do that..

So after 90+ honing cycles with tape we might have a 4/8 razor and here is the math

(2 * asin(.181 / (2 * .500)) * 180) / pi = 20.8560248

That is still inside the working angle limit we proved in 2009 and like I said the wear isn't really working out to be that hard even with doing full honings each time...
So how many years of service should I really expect from a second rate Kamisori Brand #306 razor I bought for $24 ????? Oh yeah I guess I forgot to mention this razor isn't even considered to be that good :) (that is why I use it as a test bed)


So in conclusion I leave you with the same thing I and many others have said all along...

Using tape really doesn't matter, other than it saves the spine...


You guys have to figure out your own usage levels with honing a razor, you would have to figure out the difference with just touch ups vs full honings vs times per year you hone etc: etc: The way I rough figured it for my usage to give an idea

1 full honing cycles equals 2 refresh honing cycles
2 touch ups per year for me
So I have put 30 years of wear on this razor so far
ie: it will outlive me..

ps: I never measured the razor when I bought it, but assuming the manufacturer did, we could assume a true 5/8 blade which would mean it started .625 in width which kinda adds more years to my theory :) I know it wasn't larger than that when I got it and the edge angle works out to be about right for Solingen razors...

pss: PLEASE don't take my testing, or word for it, go hone and find out for yourself you have to see what each honing cycle takes off your razor I would measure maybe every 10 if I were going to do this again.. I will keep checking this razor through the next few years also...


Thanks for reading

I have never tested this, but I am going to comment anyway...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! (that's my evil laugh)



Tape sucks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HNSB

I have never tested this, but I am going to comment anyway...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! (that's my evil laugh)



Tape sucks.

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LMAO Eric I see you took Lee's way of making a point


Muhahahaha :rofl2:


(how do I know this will be the only thread Lee reads this week)

I have learned much from Lee, the master.

I would call him "Master Lee", but I'm pretty sure that is patented, copyrighted, and trademarked.

After a year of messing with honing always using tape I dipped my foot in the water of honing without it. One of the reasons was Lynn doesn't use it except in certain circumstances. I figured if the premier honemeister in the world doesn't use it there must be something to it. Anyway, I took a micrometer to the spine of a NOS Solingen full hollow and honed it without tape. I checked it again afterwards and it was the same measurement as near as my eye could tell. So I figured that if I was going to tear up a spine it wouldn't be in one honing session at the skill level I had reached at that time.

I've got a lot of razors so I don't have to hone one a whole lot of the time. If I had one or two and they saw the hones often I might rethink it but with the amount of time the many spend on the rocks I don't worry about the wear, which is, as I said, inappreciable at this stage of the game. The thing that made me stick with no tape is the feel of the blade on the hones. Aside from the fact that tape is , AFAIC, a hassle, it offers a certain resistance that I don't feel without it.

Once I got used to the feel of the naked blade on the hone, and I did have to get used to it, I was hooked. Whenever I hone a pattern welded steel, A.K.A. "Damascus" blade I use tape and it reminds me of why I don't like to hone with it. YMMV.

I guess I just have better things to do than test this theory. I will just trust a man who does this way more than I do and continue to protect my spines. Besides, I would hate having to acid etch my Allman Scandi blade every time I hone.

Great info Glen, thanks. SRP Mythbusters strikes again!

But...

In reality, once a blade is shave ready, it will not be undergoing numerous bevel resets like your test razor, just a light touch up every so often. So in theory a razor could last at least a couple lifetimes without significant wear. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure no one here has the patience (or the lifespan) to test that one..... ;)

Pretty much what I figured too Ryan, at least one lifetime, and also exactly what Jimmy said also is true, barring a heavy hand on the hones even without tape the razor should last...

I honestly don't think either way makes much difference at all... :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

barring a heavy hand on the hones even without tape the razor should last...

:)

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As I have progressed in my learning i have noticed much less spine wear.

Most razors are designed to last a minimum of &#@ years. Pick a number.
My first razor was a DD Special #1 44 years ago. It came to me at .625
Except for the very point, it is still .610
None of us knows anyone who ever wore out a razor from new through normal use.

Happy Easter to all.....

Jerry

Hey Glen!
I am really interested in this discussion because I have started an experiment if my own.

It all started for me when my uncle brought a boots razor for honing. I could not get an edge on this razor. The razor looked like it had never seen a hone in it's life. When I measured the razor using my calipers and did some math I got the angle at a nippy 8 degrees. I thought I had made a mistake maybe forgot to double the angle but that's where I ended up.

The steel on this razor is hard as hell and I imagine this is why it can hold such an acute edge. The problem with this razor is that getting it to a shave ready state takes so bloody long it is ridiculous.

Anyway back to the point. This made me think about the possibilities of modifying the bevel angles using tape. I have taken quite a few razors through a range of angles and each angle feels different. Some angles that are considered shaving angles won't shave on certain razors with different steel compositions.

I think an important point to note is that each batch of steel will be slightly different, which would mean the optimal shave angle (durability vs keen edge) would be different for that steel. I honestly don't think that razor manufacturers had the equipment to measure this accurately but I would love to know how they did it.

So from this I think that using no tape at all would be most important to try to keep as close to that optimal angle for the steel as possible.

Have you ever tried a range of angles on one razor? If you have what did you find.

Carl

Just to add to what I already said, I am glad that I used tape my first year honing. If I had it to do over again, knowing what I know now, I'd still use tape on all razors until I felt really secure in my muscle memory and and sense of pressure and whatnot. I didn't screw any up when I began honing without tape but I had been honing a year and gone through quite a few by then.

Glen, Randy and others that I know of use tape and there is nothing wrong with that. I only hone my own. If I was honing for other people I would either tape them all or maybe not tape it the customer requested no tape. What I'm getting at is there is nothing 'wrong' with using tape if that is your preference. IMHO.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with using tape. I give my customers a choice when I hone for them. When I restore razors for sale though I only use tape if there is something really odd going on, and then I make customers aware of this.

It is a funny old discussion. I wonder if tape here in the UK is the same as in the states? Each layer of tape adds 1mm to the spine. Is that the same?

Carl

As far as spine wear is concerned, I have an old Frederick Reynolds with plenty of blade left but the spine is practically gone because Reynolds are know to be very hard steel. Apparently the edge is harder than the spine because the spine is nearly flat. When I honed it, it took an inordinate amount of time and effort plus 4 layers of tape to get a decent looking bevel on it. Spine wear does not necessarily occur commensurate with blade wear. Had I not used tape, the bevel would have been too wide to suit me or anyone else for that matter.

I also have an old DOVO with the same problem. I also have many with decorative spines so there is tape in my tool box and I use it when the time is right.

Jerry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by straightrazorheaven

I agree that there is nothing wrong with using tape. I give my customers a choice when I hone for them. When I restore razors for sale though I only use tape if there is something really odd going on, and then I make customers aware of this.

It is a funny old discussion. I wonder if tape here in the UK is the same as in the states? Each layer of tape adds 1mm to the spine. Is that the same?

Carl

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Carl

My tape is .0057 inches thick. Just convert that to mm.

Jerry

Carl,

From all the measuring we did in 09 we found that 16 degrees seemed to the mean,,

1mm seems close, the 3M #700 is .0056, we found that on a 6/8 razor 1 layer of tape changes the angle about .60 of a degree

As too off angle razors, yes we found some, but not many, and we also found abnormal heavy hone wear on the older Sheffield razor, dropped the angle, this is one of the reasons I have always thought they have softer spines and therefore are often out of angle...

Steel would make a difference but I doubt that most of the edges on Vintage razors are much different, I also think you are right that they didn't study angle in the beginning they used what worked well and it then the angles were figured later well after it was established... also if the razor you mention at 8 degrees and no hone wear it very well might have been honed free hand with the spine off the hone, or like another thread from 08 was written about maybe a spine guide being used on some of the really old true wedges /near wedges :shrug:

All this however is just theory still it takes time to prove this stuff out..

My only object with this test, was much like the test I did with the pasted strops with the same razor..

Statements like these, although true are not relevant

Pasted strops round the bevel, or create a concave bevel,, Although true, even after 90 shaves and repeated overstropping with .50 and .25 diamond paste it did not show up..So it is not realative, the edge never failed from it within a resonable amount of shaving...

Using tape will take the razor out of the makers designed angle ... Although true it will happen, it won't happen in at least your lifetime, and maybe not your kids or grandkids so it becomes an irrelevant statement...


I wish more people, would do more testing, it really would help our hobby


edit: Thanks Jerry I just went an measured to be sure :)

That's an interesting post, but for me, mainly around the frequency of honing. I refresh my razors on a Shapton16k; maybe 20 laps, around once a month to every six weeks. Am I honing too often? I have a rotation of 5 straights. They each get used once a week. I do realise there's a lot of factors that would determine the need to refresh/hone, but what would be the 'norm', generally speaking?

I hone normally just to practice and for something to do, i.e. as part of the 'hobby'...

To all you guys...

I love that there are other people that enjoy learning the finer details of our hobby :D

Carl

Glen

It never occurred to me that they could have honed freehand or with a guide! I want too try this method now lol!
0.6 degrees was also what I found for each layer of tape ... At least we found one constant :)
Carl

Glens math seems right to me – a 20% change in angle and an approximately 25% change in width (5/8’s to 4/8’s) coincide. Moreover, if my math is right, using Glen’s numbers, if you were to hone a mere 13% of the time with no tape you would have a perfect angle at all times.

It’s fascinating really! Better yet the more I read, the more I start to think that science is a bad measure when it comes to the voodoo that is honing. If for no other reason than it’s individuals at work here, and not every individual hones the same way.

Take for example the above information and think to all those razors we have all seen on eBay with worn down spines. By rights, many of them should have begun life as 11/8’s LOL!! As a matter a fact, after pondering Glen’s numbers I am starting to think that the vast majority (myself included) may be taking way too much off the spine when honing with no tape which could actually be worse - as others have stated.

As a guy who bought into the whole don’t tape camp, and just being asked by a friend how I like it, I had to admit that i missed only getting feedback from the edge when honing. Once you get used to the “slide” of the tape it’s quite easy to feel what the edge is saying vs. both edge and spine.

Thanks for the info Glen! More food for thought lol... sigh : )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

That's an interesting post, but for me, mainly around the frequency of honing. I refresh my razors on a Shapton16k; maybe 20 laps, around once a month to every six weeks. Am I honing too often? I have a rotation of 5 straights. They each get used once a week. I do realise there's a lot of factors that would determine the need to refresh/hone, but what would be the 'norm', generally speaking?

I hone normally just to practice and for something to do, i.e. as part of the 'hobby'...

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I doubt that a Norm can ever be figured although many of us try LOL

Just thinking about it quickly here, I can think of way to many variables that would have to be figured,, I bet you could come close to an average for yourself if you are like me and pretty much stick with one type of razor all the time :shrug:

I know for 20+ years I re-freshed my two razors every 2 weeks like clockwork on my Arkansas stone without tape, I had no idea about "Honing" I just knew I got better shaves then a Bic...

I never wore out the razors though, I dropped them both eventually and broke them :( so I guess in the end it wasn't relevant :rofl2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrsell63

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Carl

My tape is .0057 inches thick. Just convert that to mm.

Jerry

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______________________________


Carl

.0057 inches = .14478 mm

I get my tape from a store called Harbor Freight in packs of ten rolls.
I don't know if this store does business across the pond where you live.

Jerry

If you have the time to dig out that old german book on razor manufacturing you'll see that the angle they considered correct was something around 17 degrees (you'll get the exact numbers if you put in the ratios from the book).
On the other hand you can't have too acute of an angle or you'll be out of business. Most famously Hartsteel didn't seem to have thought this point through and the first razors they sold had huge ratio of junk - you can read the feedback on the forums.

As far as old sheffield razors, if the spine of a razor is softer than the edge it is not possible to hone that razor to shaving. It's a simple geometrical issue. Actually, if you're really persistent and have nothing better to do you could make it into inverse razor i.e. the edge is where the spine is.
In any case I've honed old razors to where the spine + bevel flats had to end up making 2/3 to 3/4 of the width - with modern fast hones it doesn't take more than few hours. But that's certainly not how these razors were designed to be - for example I have ~200 year old razors that have bevel narrower than what Dovo and TI ships you today from the factory.


The thing is that whenever somebody starts telling me how tape or no tape is the proper way to hone I just learn that there's yet another novice who isn't good with neither hands on experience, nor making up theories that describe things correctly. As long as one does not abuse his razor maintaining it sharp removes so little steel both from the edge and from the spine, that the razor is perfectly good for hundreds and thousands of years. The best advise I have for these people is to learn to hone properly and stop abusing their razors. Then they'll be fine no matter what they choose to do tape-wise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by earcutter

think to all those razors we have all seen on eBay with worn down spines.

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Whenever I see such razor I just move on to another which has had a competent owner :)

The problem with these things is that the razors are cheap and people are stupid. I imagine their thinking goes something like this: 'to make it sharp I just have to remove steel from both sides, it didn't get sharp, so I must not have removed enough steel'.
It doesn't occur to them that the edge is so delicate that it is not the amount of force, but the uniformity of the honing stroke that is the key to making it sharp.

So they completely ruin the edge in their first stroke and then follow up with thousands equally bad ones making it neither better nor worse, but just chiseling steel away from the razor and dumping the swarf into the drain.

I often wonder how some of those Ebay/antique store razors got so honed out, I doubt I could ever do that much damage.

I tape my mint ones and just hone my other ones.

I tried seperating razors by condition etc. and would tape certain ones and not tape certain other ones and after a short while, I couldn't remember which ones I taped and which ones I didn't. I am a notorius non-notetaker.

So, now I buy tape by the 10 roll pack at Harbor Freight and tape everything. With tape, all razors drag on the hone with just about the same amount of resistance and when the blade begins to suck down onto the hone surface, it is easier for me to discern the moment that feedback occurs.

I am more comfortable with tape but I can understand why some others would rather hone a bare spine. Personal preference is a wonderful thing. Let's just thank the Lord that the government hasn't stuck their nose in this issue yet. They might hire more IRS agents to police spine tape!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jerry
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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrsell63

I tried seperating razors by condition etc. and would tape certain ones and not tape certain other ones and after a short while, I couldn't remember which ones I taped and which ones I didn't. I am a notorius non-notetaker.

So, now I buy tape by the 10 roll pack at Harbor Freight and tape everything. With tape, all razors drag on the hone with just about the same amount of resistance and when the blade begins to suck down onto the hone surface, it is easier for me to discern the moment that feedback occurs.

I am more comfortable with tape but I can understand why some others would rather hone a bare spine. Personal preference is a wonderful thing. Let's just thank the Lord that the government hasn't stuck their nose in this issue yet. They might hire more IRS agents to police spine tape!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jerry
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Bet if the stores actually started calling it "spine tape" like you just did, we'd have the AMA and FDA (and the IRS shortly thereafter) all over it in a hurry!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

LMAO Eric I see you took Lee's way of making a point


Muhahahaha :rofl2:


(how do I know this will be the only thread Lee reads this week)

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You know me too well, scary

Eric, I thought about changing my name just because of that Master Lee debacle, but then I remembered Michael Bolton in Office Space: "why should I change my name? he's the one who sucks"

PS if you tape the entire razor, it never wears down at all

I am glad you started this thread, I almost forgot a weekend test I made about 2 months ago. I was debating about this tape stuff too, especially the one regarding angle change over time. I got out a russian razor I was honing, and emulated the following:

Lets assume you do 20 strokes on a finisher to refresh your razors edge every week, for 50 years, and you shave with it every day, no other razor used. Thats a total of 52.000 strokes.

I did about 10.000 strokes on a 12k Shapton pro, can you imagine how much time and lapping that took? :rofl2:

I measured the razor before and after it, and the difference came out roughly at 0.1mm, so if I would have gone farther, the width loss would have been about 0.5mm for 50 years of constant use, but lets calculate with 1mm. Thats almost nothing, even for a 5/8 razor. So in my opinion this myth is busted, the bevel angle won't change considerably if you care for your razor. Or bettter I should say that it will change, but no human is capable to spot this small of a difference.

I was hoping that you will repost this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jeness

I measured the razor before and after it, and the difference came out roughly at 0.1mm, so if I would have gone farther, the width loss would have been about 0.5mm for 50 years of constant use, but lets calculate with 1mm. Thats almost nothing, even for a 5/8 razor.

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And that's exactly what everybody with two bits of common sense should've done before ever posting how important the change in the bevel angle is over 'many years'.

As you calculated the change due to hone wear over a person's life time is between 0.5 and 1 degree!!! And that's with very heavy maintenance - with my stropping my maintenance is roughly 10 to 50 times less.

I only wish more people would do a basic thinking before making insane statements about stuff they do not understand. Most of all I expect it from knifemakers who are aspiring to be gurus, and talk about 'science' as if they know what it means.


Of course, abusing razors is a whole different story, and I would simply stay away from those 'experts' regardless of whether they use, or not use a tape.

My goal was mainly just that, to take the heaviest touch-up sequence I can think of, and go with that. There aren't too many finishers out there faster than a 12k Shapton, if there are any, the wear on a razor would be even less than this, if one uses pastes, or a gentler finisher.

What I like about this as well is that it also shows how little wear there is period when the honing is done properly. So in my mind, taping remains purely a personal preference or marketing argument, although there are definite uses for it in specific situations.

Attachment 95225
We don't need no stinkin' Tape...:angel:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jeness

I am glad you started this thread, I almost forgot a weekend test I made about 2 months ago. I was debating about this tape stuff too, especially the one regarding angle change over time. I got out a russian razor I was honing, and emulated the following:

Lets assume you do 20 strokes on a finisher to refresh your razors edge every week, for 50 years, and you shave with it every day, no other razor used. Thats a total of 52.000 strokes.

I did about 10.000 strokes on a 12k Shapton pro, can you imagine how much time and lapping that took? :rofl2:

I measured the razor before and after it, and the difference came out roughly at 0.1mm, so if I would have gone farther, the width loss would have been about 0.5mm for 50 years of constant use, but lets calculate with 1mm. Thats almost nothing, even for a 5/8 razor. So in my opinion this myth is busted, the bevel angle won't change considerably if you care for your razor. Or bettter I should say that it will change, but no human is capable to spot this small of a difference.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by HNSB

I have learned much from Lee, the master.

I would call him "Master Lee", but I'm pretty sure that is patented, copyrighted, and trademarked.

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Call him "Mister Lee".... A slight necro-post :)

The Bobbettes (NY)- Mr Lee.wmv - YouTube

On the one hand, we see that honing with or without tape will cause a only marginal loss of steel at the shoulder. It is also proposed that over a lifetime this marginal loss will not change the bevel to any significant degree or would keep it from attaining a shavable edge.

On the other hand, you see blades with a great degree of hone wear on the auction sites and elesewhere. So it did occur.

I going to suggest that the blades that had a large degree of hone wear weren't, in fact, poorly honed by their owners at all. If the owners of the razors cared for them as much we aficionados do now, they were not going to treat them in that manner. We see the degree of concern that newbies like myself have towards all aspects of the hobby, including honing, it probably existed back then also.

The wear I see on razors looks like it was done by mechanical means. I think that many of the razors that we see with hone wear were honed by commercial sharpeners looking get an edge as quickly as possible. In urban areas, it might have been the guy in the knife truck or sharpening service that went around sharpening knives, scissors and razors. Slap it on the wheel, let the sparks fly and strop it up. "Thank you Maam, that will be quarter." They would be looking at turnaround to make a profit.

There's no evidence to back this up until somebody wants to try another experiment with a wheel and beater razors. Then, however, I think you'll really be able to recreate the type of hone wear we see on some older blades.

My 2 cents.

Thank you very much as I had completely forgoten about the trucks that came around every once and a while in my area. It looked like a circus wagon and would do knives, scissors and the like, though I do not remember them blokes doin' any Str8' razors, and then I was awfully young at the time.
As to Tapeing I always do simply because It will NOT hurt the angle of the dangle in any way and will save on spine wear.
AND I like the way it feels on my J.Nat's as I stroke away my dulling blues.
I can't abide a dull or unfitting tool, even If I don't use the thing that often, I in fact have a block plane that I honed to a fair thee well and after use I oil the plane blade up and stored in away sharp and ready for the next use even if that won't be for some time.
Thank you for this thread, great info. !!

tinkersd

I guess it depends on the amount of pressure you use. Usually "Less is More"! I find the Shapton stones pretty agressive & need less pressure. This is true with the Shapton Glass & Pro lines. Hence I am moving to Shapton hones. I have a 1K Pro & a 16K glass & I am looking to get a 5 Kor6K hone & a 8K to round out my Shapton collection. I won't be getting any more hones for a while as we hope to be moving to Ashville NC this Summer. Sick of the politics that are ruining our state so it's "Time for Me to FLY" !!

Slawman