ugh...a tape thread...

I've read this statement twice now, and was hoping for some further explanation. "If you can't get a bevel with no tape, adding tape won't help." That's paraphrasing ofc. This does depend on blade geometry I know. But I've had several razors that wouldn't take a bevel without tape. While only one that was less agreeable with the addition of tape. So it's just my experience thus far I get. But I'm trying to understand the statement. For me, adding tape creates a more stout, short bevel. While not using tape is preferred due to the tape adding a frictional facet I don't like. But it's been proven for me anyhow, that adding tape to the spine of a razor shortens the work cycle considerably, and sharpens razors that I otherwise couldn't get a decent V on. So what gives? Is this my mileage varying?

Just do an advanced search with keyword "tape" and you'll see why someone would say... ugh, another tape thread .... or coticule or HHT or .... the list can go on and on. :popcorn:

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

shortens the work cycle considerably

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This. It's the same idea as hollow grind vs full wedge. You just have to remove less metal to do what you're trying to do. This response ignores the other purpose of tape, which is to dope an uneven spine.

Jimmy didn't read the thread or I didn't write it well. lol I'm very familiar with the tiresome nature of tape threads. lol. The worst part is when you wanna know something specific about using tape, because there's no way to wade through it all. Hence...another tape thread begins. lol.

The statement "if you can't do it without tape, adding tape won't help.", to me, means that every razor is honeable without tape. While I find the idea that every razor is honeable without tape, to be false. The statement doesn't allude to me in any way that adding tape shortens the work cycle. Maybe I'm too dense for this topic. lol.

Adding one layer of tape doesn't change the geometry much (I forget the reported change in degrees), so it doesn't really change the bevel angle. You will remove less steel with tape, because there is a slightly larger bevel angle, but also because you are not removing material from the spine (so the bevel angle gets just a little wider as you hone, since the spine width remains closer to constant). If you are removing a lot of steel, these two factors come into play, and honing takes less time with tape. If steel removal is not a factor, then the tape effectively changes nothing, so either way you should get a good edge.

If you want logically think about the question "If you can't do it with/without tape, can you do it without/with?" just consider what variables you are actually changing. The steel is the same, the geometry change is negligible, your honing stills are the same, the stones are the same, etc etc. Nothing really changes. If you want to practically test it, just pick a razor, and try with and without. Just make sure you actually put in enough (patient) honing time to make sure you can set the bevel without tape.

Just my quick thoughts. Given the extent it's been discussed, I'm sure a search will show you much more.

Nothing 'wrong' with using tape if that is your preference. I used one layer on everything the first year I honed and it all worked out well. Now I only use it on damascus or decorated spines, and I consider it a PITA .... but it is just a matter of individual choice. IMHO more than one layer is only required, or even advisable, for special applications. No rules ..... all is fair in love, buying on ebay and honing razors. :rock:

I think tape can speed things up, but even a spoon has a bevel. I would be surprised if someone with honing experience was convinced that the only way to achieve a good bevel was through tape application. I'm not sure, without being guilty of replying to yet another tape thread, how to really explain all the potential nuances.

Yeah I don't like to use tape, but in a handful of instances, it was the only way to establish a bevel...IMHO. And regardless of the measurements and science of it all, those razors had plenty of time to get sharp before I gave up and used tape. lol. Small change, Drastically different result. Who knows.

Anyhow, just making sure I was reading the statement correctly. Thanks fellahs.

There was one razor a few years ago that wouldn't "take" an edge, basically it had a bevel problem. I should have applied tape and been done with it. But I was ornery about it, because well I'm ornery. So in the end I put my fingers on the spine and ground it down until I achieved a bevel. Should I have used tape? Yes, probably. Was it the ONLY option. No, not in my mind. I hope that makes a little more sense.

I use tape on all my razors, usually 1 layer because most are new or NOS and I just don't like hone wear on the spine. Some don't, others like me do and since it's a preference thing I don't think anyone is wrong. But occasionally and I'll take my Civil War era Sheffield as an example, passed down through the family by the way, as one that I use 3 or maybe 4 layers on. The spine is so worn that to try and hone it without tape is to hone a 3/16"+/- bevel. It takes for ever and really creates a wider, very thin edge. By adding 3 and I think I actually used 4 layers last time (and I know that it gets spongie there) I am re-establishing a temporary spine to lift it up enough to narrow the bevel and make honing much faster and in my mind a more durable edge by having the the thinnest part of the edge narrower in bevel width. It does change the geometry enough to work. It works for me anyway!

Regards,

Howard

I use tape to keep wear off my spine.
200 years from now, archaeologists will find my stash of Max Sprecher Razors and deduct, "Yep, them boys used tape back then, no spine wear."

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

I use tape to keep wear off my spine.
200 years from now, archaeologists will find my stash of Max Sprecher Razors and deduct, "Yep, them boys used tape back then, no spine wear."

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When you get my age Hirlau,You can tape your spine all you want,nothing except Vicodan works to protect it.

I always use tape. I generally use three layers because I've been practicing my counting. Sometimes I use five layers because I want to
stretch my memory a bit. Then sometimes I forget how many I used on the razor the last time. I try to make notes that tell me how many layers I used on each razor, but sometimes I forget. Then sometimes I forget where I put my notes. I think I'm just going to stop honing. This is all just too complicated for me.

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

Is this my mileage varying?

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I know this is off topic(as these threads usually go that way anyway), but is there a metric equivalent of "Your mileage may vary". This has been a random thought playing out in the back if my mind for some time now.:hmmm:

I always have used one layer of black PVC tape to the razors I"ve honed, just to keep hone wear down, especialy on older razors that have had enough heavey handed honing in years past.
But there are times when a stuborn razor that won't get to were I need it to be, finds the addiction of a couple or 3 layers of PVC tape to bring it to the keeness desired.
I suppose it's whatever floats the proverbial boat.

Hone on mates, the road traveled is the reason for the trip!!

tinkersd

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Take the tape off and the bevel only needs to be taken about 0.000273" deeper (at the non-edge side of the bevel) to reset. That's only 273 millionths of an inch, assuming a bevel height of 1/32 of an inch and a reduction of 1/2 degree per side. All of my full-hollows have bevel heights less than that. Meaning less removal than 273u". It usually takes me less than 1 minute to set a bevel that was already done with tape; using a 1200 hone. I think it's a non-issue. If you want to use tape to protect a fancy spine or save some steel during a rework, ok. If not, that's ok too. Either way, the razor will probably last long enough to give to your Great-Grandson. Using or not using tape will not damage a shaving edge that is properly honed. Tape does give the honing stroke a very different feel, but that is easily compensated for. The tape will be thinned by abrasion, much more than compression; especially on the coarser hones. Anyone who has set many "heavy-work" bevels using tape is familiar with removing their tape in 3 long strips...

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The above was extracted from this ancient post...: http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...tml#post500402

Ballpark figure of 0.5 degree per side per layer of tape is close enough for most purposes.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

When you get my age Hirlau,You can tape your spine all you want,nothing except Vicodan works to protect it.

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+1 to the Vicodin....or Oxy, I have enough steel in my body to make a couple of razors....

I'm a taper. I use one layer all the time, that way I don't have to remember if I used tape or not. I have one very old, special Wade and Butcher restored by Alex Jacques. I use two layers on that one. That's the only exception. It does help to keep spine wear at bay.

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Originally Posted by Sticky

The above was extracted from this ancient post...: http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...tml#post500402

Ballpark figure of 0.5 degree per side per layer of tape is close enough for most purposes.

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Here is an even more recent one with figures from an actual razor instead of theory

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...-theories.html

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Originally Posted by zib

+1 to the Vicodin....or Oxy, I have enough steel in my body to make a couple of razors....

I'm a taper. I use one layer all the time, that way I don't have to remember if I used tape or not. I have one very old, special Wade and Butcher restored by Alex Jacques. I use two layers on that one. That's the only exception. It does help to keep spine wear at bay.

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Am down to 3 OTC advils a day,work great with a pepcid before bed,downside side is as an NSID they raise hell with your platelets,upside is, you really need to perfect your shaving techniques and hone to perfection,or blood will be shed:)

Back to tape, if all your blades were/are done with tape to perfection,time comes they need a minor re-fresh,say a little barber stone action,do they have to be taped again to do the deed.

I say yes, but my experience is limited on barber's hones. I always tape, but one night grabbed a barber's hone and spread lather on it to refresh during the shave, laid it flat no change in the next couple of strokes, raised it a bit, 6 strokes & rolled the edge over so bad , had to got to the next razor in the rotation to finish.

About a month later, refreshed with tape on another razor & shave, 6 strokes, strop, nice clean cut, smooth.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Here is an even more recent one with figures from an actual razor instead of theory

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...-theories.html

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Which part is theory? The geometry and trig is precise math. I think the referred post also said: "Using tape really doesn't matter, other than it saves the spine..."; basically.

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Originally Posted by Sticky

Which part is theory? The geometry and trig is precise math. I think the referred post also said: "Using tape really doesn't matter, other than it saves the spine..."; basically.

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Aye they do both say the same thing Thats what I meant... just backing up the old thread with new proofs in steel instead of math

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Aye they do both say the same thing Thats what I meant... just backing up the old thread with new proofs in steel instead of math

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Math and steel, I measured the difference on an Optical Comparator to double-check the math.

I"m loving this thread!! what were we talking about again??