REPOSTED UNDER HONES
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REPOSTED UNDER HONES
Sounds more like an ode "against" the X-stroke.
How's this?
The pattern of honing will create edge effects,
and is properly done in strokes resembling an 'X'.
Honing without an 'X' can work, it must be surmised,
but by using the 'X' stroke more angles are realized.
Even on a three inch hone, slight X-strokes can help
to create a more refined edge, so the shaver won't yelp
when he cuts himself with an edge not well-refined.
X-strokes make the edge less one dimensional, more defined.
Oh my, I really aren't prepared to retire the x-stroke at all!
Regardless of a stones width, I will use the x-stroke, as the edge of the hone closest to your hand is where everything is at:)
That is the area where the most control can be had, and the bevel really felt thru the hand.
Getting an evenly distributed pressure on a bevel throughout the whole lenght of the blade is not easy, sometimes even quite impossible, at least with a degree of control and feel. IMHO that is:)
No, the X-stroke will remain the pillar of my honing regardless of stones width, no doubt about that!
Perhaps this thread should be moved to the "Honing"forum.
Quite right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin103
Done:)
I do not hone my razors. But of course I do stropping. I have a DOVO Russian Leather/Canvas strop which is 2 inches wide. I am used to make X-pattern strokes so no retirement for me.
I would think that with a straight back and forth stropping/honing if there is a small imperfection in either you will just go over that spot with the same portion of the edge so you won't get that super sharpness to that section of the edge. With the X stroke you most likely won't hit the same spots with the same portion of the edge every single pass so those micro-imperfections won't effect your blade as much. So even with a 3" strop/hone you would want to do a X stroke; it just won't need to be as pronounced as it would with a 2" strop/hone.
You are correct. I will move this post to the honing section.Quote:
Originally Posted by Birnando
Thanks guys.
Most of us started with the X-pattern stroke. Up until a few months ago I was still using it. Back then our hones were at best two inches wide and our strops about the same. The X-pattern stroke was necessary to cover then entire edge of a SR. Today, we have 3" plus hones and strops that easily cover the entire edge. I am increasingly convinced, especially for newbies, that the X-pattern stroke on these wider surfaces is unnecessary and potentially injurious to the edge. Perhaps it is time to retire the X-pattern stroke for the following reasons.
1. A combination of edge forward, heel forward, and toe forward strokes can cover the entire edge without ever drawing it over the edge of the hone during an X-pattern stroke.
2. Keeping the entire edge on the stone avoids variations in pressure that can occur during the X-pattern stroke.
3. The X-pattern stroke favors the middle and toe of the edge at the expense of the heel, which inevitable spends less time in contact with the hone. Keeping the entire edge on the hone surface provides more even coverage.
4. With such wide hones and strops the original usefulness of this stroke is no longer required.
OK, now you can let me have it with your own opinions. Has anyone else out there elected, as I have, to retire the X-stroke pattern?
http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...e-sr-shave.gif
One of the values of X-strokes is that the variation in stroke direction minimizes striations in the bevel. Because the strokes are in slightly different directions, the striations tend to be cancelled out, leaving a smoother bevel.
This is a good point. However, I have found that these same angular striations can be created with alternating heel/toe forward strokes ~20-30 degree angle without drawing the edge off the hone. Rotating the stone can also ensure that the edge is not running over the same spot. I have confirmed that a similar striation pattern can be created under my 30X loupe at the 1000 grit level.Quote:
Originally Posted by ace
Yes , the "X" stroke has gone out of style . The only people who still use the "X" stroke , are uninformed Neanderthals , who simply refuse to change . Most people are now using the "Y" stroke , and those who are on the "cutting edge" of honing are experimenting with the "Z" stroke . Just kidding , of course :p . I say , stroke it whatever way works for you .
We are talking SR's...right? :rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by dave5225
Beat me to it!!Quote:
Originally Posted by dave5225
Yes, I've been using the method you describe in your original post for a couple of years now. I couldn't be happier with the results. I have on old Escher that is narrower, and I confess I use a bit of an x-stroke there when necessary to cover the whole edge.
Great minds , think alike (I think) .:beer1:Quote:
Originally Posted by FTG
Threads have been Merged and moved to the Advanced Honing Section,
Ok now that it is in the right place, my opinion is that there are degrees of X patterns,, ie: on a 3 inch hone the X pattern is way less pronounced then it is on the 1 inch hone... There is NOTHING that says the X pattern must be so pronounced the only true objective of honing is to evenly draw the edge across the hone and manage not to create odd wear...
Sorry for the incomplete thought up there something my Sis figured was of importance interrupted me :)
I wanted to also point out that there are some draw backs to not learning to use the X pattern properly..
1. Many finishers would be of no use to you
2. You would have to develop another pattern to keep the Frowns away :(
3. Barber's Hones, and smaller bouts would be of no use to you
4. You would have to be extra careful about keeping your hones lapped
5. Honing gymnastics would be extra hard for you so difficult blades would be harder
Learning the proper use of the X stroke teaches you how to adapt and overcome many honing challenges. It is the basic stroke that all others have evovled from.. ie: It is pretty easy for us that have learned it to say "I don't really use a basic X stroke any longer" but as the "learning stroke I still think it is essential...
There that was the rest of my thoughts, please note I said Proper use of the X
Your razor, your hones, your shave, your face, your strokes, your experience, your enjoyment (hopefully).
Glen makes some good points. I'd follow them with the reason many of us are here. I enjoy doing things the hard way...I believe this makes me more robust and able to cope with challenges. Let us not forget that many men today learned to be ignorant about most things shaving as a result of the past couple generations being handed easier ways to shave.
This notion of turning soap into lather and using a bare blade to groom one's facial hair used to be so common place. Now it's fairly rare because people found easier ways to do it that worked almost as well. In this regard I do not look to simplify maintenance and honing...I'd rather challenge myself regularly;)
I would agree with all your points, especially with regard to the flexibility in handling blade variations. The X-stroke would be advantageous in many of the circumstances that you mention, and worthy of mastery. But as you point out, ceteris parabis (all things being equal), a three-inch wide, properly lapped hone will do a fine job without using a single X-stroke.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
On the first comment I would respecfully request some clarification. A wide enough finisher works beautifully with a 30 degree angled heel forward stroke. I am not sure what, if any, advantage the X-stroke necessarily provides on a finishing stone. Did you mean to say on a narrow finisher (<2.5in)? Perhaps you can explain this point to me.
In others words "Why kick the sleeping dog"Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
The only 3 inch wide hone I have is a dmt 325 so I won't be ditching the x-stroke any time soon.
No need for explination :) you got it :tuQuote:
Originally Posted by Gammaray
I think my main point is that it is very easy for experienced honers that have mastered the X pattern and have evolved it into other things to say "Yeah I barely use it any longer" then it would be to skip it's use all together..
Which is exactly why I moved this discussion into the Advanced section, as it is a discussion among people that have an option of using all the different patterns because we have learned them and how to use them :)
I hope that is a bit more clear...
The purpose of this thread was to gather some impressions on how the new EXTRA wide water stones and leather strops have perhaps diminished the real utility of the X-stroke. This early sample of respondents would say that the X-stroke still has merit under some circumstances even on the wider stones, and that it is still mandatory for narrower stones. It would appear that among the experienced users the X-stroke may no longer be mandatory on the wider media. Additional comments or impressions are welcome. Thanks for the feedback.
I'd suggest that x strokes are still mandatory ON SOME BLADES;)
Wide hones are nice, but some blades have special needs and a wider stone offers no advantage...in fact, many prefer narrower hones for some special cases.
One notable example is a warped blade.
The narrow VS wide hones has been brought up many times, some even cutting the hone in half for special blades. The outcome was that a narrow hone doesnt give you any advantages on any blade.Quote:
Originally Posted by unit
Really ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gammaray
This week I have learned that, "stropping is basicly overrated & in most cases unneccessary."
This week I have learned that, "the X-stroke is outdated, unnecessary (since we all now have access to large hones don't we/) & that it needs to be retired.
Really ?
I am now convinced that someone will wake up next week & teach me that straight razors are a thing of the past, obsolete, & just plain dangerous and I will be forced to ask myself, "Why straight razors, when there are all these wonderfull, modern & safe BIC disposables to be had?"
Really ?
Really ?
I've learned that I can't treat every razor the same way. Whether new or old, razors all contact the hone in slightly different ways.
Recently I honed one razor with near perfect geometry. It honed up very easily with just a very slight x stroke while almost going straight across. It's a great shaving razor now.
The next razor I honed just wouldn't make full contact on the hone. I tried a very dramatic x stroke and I got 95% of the blade, with just the very toe not contacting. The I added a slight roll at the end of the stroke and made full contact. I will shave test this blade tomorrow. Straight up and down strokes would not have worked on this razor.
So one just has to adapt to each razor. Sometimes an x stroke is called for regardless of the width of the hone.
Michael
With a razor properly honed we learn to shave with point leading. The angle of the teeth set in the blade is such that they approach and cut hair at an even larger angle.
Take the same blade and shave with the heal leading(not recomended)
The angle the teeth are set is in my opinion all part of a smooth shave. YMMV
I have found that X-strokes work well for a more refined edge even on 3" wide stones', but yes it's not as pronounced as with a with a narower hone. it's does in my opnion make for more complete coverage of the edge if there is even the smallest of warp to it. BUT when I use my PHIG which is a 2"'er I use the x-stroke with 2 hands to make certain I keep a flat and even contact with the surface of the PHIG[compacted Chinese mud I believe].
With a 3"'er I can use one hand with most confidence.
Just my input, Not a honmiester me, just my own razors that I hone, and this is what my experience has tought me.
Have a great week on me, tinkersd.
The X-stroke is the most agile, efficient, effective, and accurate stroke I know. Why is it? I don't know. It just feels right and accommodates me. What I do know is that I won't retire it!
I like the X stroke because I like parallel lines. If you really lock in the wrists and zone in on the stroke, the striations on the edge under magnification look like this: \\\\\\\\
I find that pleasing.
James.