Printable View
Anybody else notice that recently there have been a huge lot of Japanese razors on the bay. They all seem to be in good condition and going for a reasonable price if they are good. I am not to knowledgeable about Japanese brands. Are these brands that are going on the bay any good.
Nothing new. short while back some people here on SRP were talking about Japanese straights. As is always the case, shortly after posting of conversations, said razors started popping up all over the place.
I have had 3 Japanese straights, and they ran the gamut from shaving perfection to warped and weird and not so hot no matter how you honed them. Kind of like every other razor =P
They are generally good razors, but like any razors, there are some defectives. If you get good brands like kikuboshi or cape or anything from nichiri, they are pretty good.
I think they are showing up in droves because nichiri razor company probably had a lot of stock when they decided they were not going to distribute straights, and those razors probably fell into the hands of peddlers, collectors, and such in japan, and when someone decides they're going to sell them, they sell a bunch.
I will say a few things from experience:
* some of the specialty steel razors are hit and miss. when they're fantastic, they're really fantstic (the scholler bleckmann "phoenix" steel comes to mind), when they're not, they're just very hard and they almost get like you want them to be.
* the stuff that's unmarked and just says silver steel is probably something with less potential high hardness than the specialty steels, or less alloying, but those razors are usually just as good when they are straight
* the razors that were finished by a known cutler are the highest level of finish of any type of razors I've ever seen anywhere, especially when you think about the fact that they are still production razors. To do work to that level of quality is dizzying - by that, I mean the cutler's ability to finish a razor to a high level of very even polish, etc, without buffing off crisp lines on the razor and without having any uneven lines. The very plainest of them that are done to that level are works of art, even though to the average person, they won't look like anything special
* There was a fascination with tungsten steels in japan (and maybe somewhere else). when you see a razor that says best tungsten steel, they are not kidding about tungsten being in it. you'll find them a little harder to sharpen than something that says "silver steel or swedish".
When you're thinking about spending $150 on one, or $200, my money is on them or an NOS german razor over new. The level of finish and the quality of the grind is better. Do they shave better? Not always, but buying razors is really about putting the odds in your favor. Nothing is guaranteed.
The above point about the crisp lines is what struck me first of all about the Japanese razors I've seen. All to often I see production razors that have been aggressively buffed in order to achieve a passable finish.
Underground and overbuffed. Some of the ebay sellers discuss the weight of the razor, which is useful if you're trying to get a relative sense of how lightly ground they are. Some of the razors I've had (notably a hayashi- I think it was a #80 or #120 - was like a machete - no noise on the strop) were heavy, and some are very finely ground like the nicest double hollow german razors.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikew
It does seem that in general, the japanese razors are a bit harder, and a bit more resistant to stropping and are maybe a bit more picky about getting the edge "just so" because of it. The slightly softer german razors are a bit easier to strop to weeper sharpness.
sounds about right. there recently has been a short splurge of japanese straights recently on the bay. I've managed to pick up a couple myself.
I picked up a Hoshi Tombo 8500 recently.
I pretty much agree with DaveW,
I do not have a Western Style Japanese razor as they have been totally out of sight as far as price.
I have bought quite a few Japanese frame backs and Kamisori. The quality of the edges all was very good to OMG. That said,
Yasuki Steel is a black sand steel made by a large steel company by a traditional method. It is available in four grades and the razors made from it seem to be Rc 60+.
Tamahagane is a ancient black sand steel and is abut as expensive as any steel out there. As the post above says, look for a known smith to buy the best.
Now its down to 86 bucks for 96 grams. about 3 ounces. And that is pretty much unrefined raw material.
Swedish Steel is often remarked on the blades and they do a nice job with it.
The frame backs are really excellent but may eat a soft hone and can corrode quickly.
I enjoy them and as the prices have dropped significantly a purchase of the best is only a click away.
Just my opinions over a couple years. For example, I have one razor new purchased! The others are all used.
~Richard
I've got 7 or 8 Japanese western-style razors so far and there's not a bad one in the lot. They've pretty much always been reasonably priced since I started shaving with straights.
Also note that's the leftovers from the main consumers of tamahagane. The NTBHK operates the tataras and controls who gets the material. The quality material gets attributed to registered swordsmiths (based on rankings). The swordsmiths only get a limited amount and legally can't use foreign steel, otherwise the blades go down from "work of art" status to "weapon" status (illegal to produce, sell or own in Japan).Quote:
Originally Posted by Geezer
I have bought a few lately and all seem super so far, notably the Diamond Hayashi and Kikuboshi. Really nice razors.
I think there has been an awakening in Japan as to the value and competition has driven prices down.
Good thing! I could never have afforded one a few years ago and now have 4!
So Dave. While on the subject, can you tell us anything about that steel? :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Attachment 183641
Whose razor is that? I don't think that's my picture, but I have an identical razor to it. It's sort of a light razor, so I can't tell if that makes mine feel a little less than extra keen, but mine is very fickle about strop pressure (it's probably too hard). However, a light touch with it on the strop and on the hone, and it has a very smooth comfortable edge. I expected biting keen, but it's not that kind of edge.
But then I have two other razors, one of them is labeled "Nelson" phoenix steel, and it's also lightly ground, and it's super keen, and a third "harthy" that is the same special process steel (also labeled phoenix) and it's between the two.
I like the kikuboshi razor, though, despite trying to get it totally figured out. The rubber grip is super cool, and it could be that one other than mine might have the biting keenness. The boxes they come in are really nice, too.
Anyway, I don't know if my difference between the razors is because of their different grinds, or if they are tempered differently. I like them all.
It is my razor, Dave. Have not tried it yet, but apparently it must be some sort of stainless alloy.
S&B do some really specialized stuff for the oilfield and industry.
Found this sort of thing: Distributing Seamless Duplex, Super Duplex & Hollow Bar
I wonder when it was made. They may have an engineered products division that will make a few tons of something special order, and then it could be pretty much anything.
it's funny the fascination with blade steels that goes on there. Tamahagane was highly regarded because the input was so low quality and full of impurities, and if you were on the receiving end of the best, it was the only way to get clean steels there. Then there was an influx of english steels in the tool market there (Andrews company) that is still highly regarded today, and there is still some being used (Togo Reigo is what the most highly regarded is) in very high dollar planes.
But they also are fascinated with the purest of carbon steels and blade steels (which are just modern incantations of tamahagane, but with a higher carbon content). It's an interesting combination with the high tungsten steels and then flip over to the other side and you get stuff like Assab k120 swedish and white steel #1 (i'm not aware of razors made of white #1,though).
Given the way my kikuboshi razor behaves, I would assume that it's alloyed, though, but not stainless as I have a nelson razor that's got a line of pits on it even though it was NOS. I'd love to see what the composition is, though. I've never seen anything about it.
Sharptonn, what you have is (I think...:p) one of the aforementioned Bleckmann Phoenix steel razors. I have a Corvette 1965 in Phoenix steel and it's a heck of a razor. Mildly interesting info here:Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
PHOENIX - Reviews & Brand Information - SCHOELLER-BLECKMANN STAHLWERKE, A.G. VIENNA , - Serial Number: 71275299
Your Kikuboshi is an excellent razor.
I tried a flurry of them a around 6 months ago. All VERY nice. As usual, I wanted to scratch that itch and then they all went to good homes. Everyone should give 1 or 6 or 12 a go perhaps and judge form yourself.
Sharptonn it seems like you and I both have the same taste in razors.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
First we bought the same model Rosette and Hayashi(seems like it wasn't cel rot) razors and now we've bought twin Kikuboshis.
I've been eyeing the one that was listed this Sunday and decided that I was going to buy it if no one else had gotten it before the listing ended but now that I saw that you got one it pushed me over the edge and I pulled the trigger.
----------
Just a thing that I've been keeping quiet about because I didn't want to alert any rival buyers to its existence. Anyone else feel like the Kikuboshi Special and this Hayashi
(not my pic)Attachment 183674
are eerily similar to a certain German made "1938 razor" that was made by a company named after a certain type of big cat?
I also have noticed this influx of Japanese razors on the bay. Japan has an aging population, lots of barbers retiring, and now more ebay sellers from the land of the rising sun selling straight razors.
The japanese are masters of manufacture,perhaps they are making new razors that are passed off as being old manufacture,Just a thought:)
I don't think so, but some of these were made up through the 80's. It seems Japanese barbers stayed with traditional straights much, much longer than they did here in the U.S.
My understanding from a seller in Japan is that a very large Japanese wholesaler decided to retire. Japanese first and then the major lots of new and used blades on eBay.
~Richard
I believe that Diamond series is not a western style blade but a flat sided Japanese style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxxer
Then you are mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by lz6
Here's another picture from the same listing:
Attachment 183736
there's also a stabiliser which to me implies western style hollow.
And I don't think I've ever seen a kami-ground razor with a long(∼70mm) blade but that doesn't necessarily mean that they don't exist.
Yup. I'm about 99% sure that the Diamond is a western style and not a kami grind.
Here's a H. Diamond Extra Steel Western Kamisori. It, like most of the Western kamisoris I have, may not be what they seem to be! Take a look at the first attached image. Looks asymmetric huh? Now look at the second image, which is the same blade looking more head-on with a piece of painter's tape obscuring the spines. Look more symmetric? It does to me.
I started thinking about it, and what I think they really did was to lop part of the spine off on one side to make it look asymmetric but it really isn't. It's just slick marketing maybe. The last image is one I made a while back to illustrate the principle and show that the angles were the same on both sides to limits of my ability to measure.
Interesting!
Cheers, Steve
Thanks Steve. They are out there and I always double check now days before I buy.
Here we have a difference between a true Kamisori and a Western grind kamisori and a Japanese western grind. JMO
I'm pretty sure I bought a false Western Kamisori with a Japanese grind intended for export to the West.
Steve56: It seems like this kind of grind would affect the bevel setting....but I'm probably missing something as geometry was not a class I was particularly good in.
I don't think so, as a normal razor wears down the spine thickness is reduced but so is the distance from the spine to the edge, maintaining a proper angle. So even though the spine thickness is reduced on one side, the distance to the edge is also reduced, on purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by WW243
In the example shown, the bevel widths are very close if not the same on both sides (I bought it used).
Cheers, Steve
Well, Bill! It finally got exported to the West! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by WW243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
Sorry but that neither sounds or looks right to me so I did some quick calculations and the angle from the spot where the spine contacts the hone relative to the bevel is not in fact the same on both sides.
Here are my calculations. Keep in mind that my measurements are based on the proportions of your sketch so the angles might not be accurate for the actual razor.
From the three points of contact with the hone you can divide the razor into two right triangles.
Here's my sketch of your sketch with measurements(PS, my printer didn't think there were enough lines so it added an extra one for every scan):
Attachment 183863
To make it easier to follow I drew separate right triangles with the same proportions as the sides of your razor when I calculated the angles.
We'll call the hone contact spot's angle relative to the bevel on the omote side, "β".
β is 13,0°.
Same thing is done for the ura side but this time the angle is called "α".
α is 18,4°.
Sketches and calculations:
Omote
Attachment 183864
Ura
Attachment 183865
I cropped the pictures to make it easier to read since I found it a bit hard to read(and I've got good eyes) the downside is that they are now in different scales but that doesn't really matter since the proportions are still the same and the actual measurements are written down on them
Here is a clearer shot of a single bevel Japanese western style. This happens to be a Tosho.
Attachment 183866
Attachment 183867
I've honed quite a few Western style Kamisori grind blades, they are true Kamisori grinds but they are finished to a higher level and the side (A) with the 18.4 degrees is the side with a set and defined bevel but purely by the nature of how you hone these razors side (B) with 13 degree will also have a very small bevel barely noticeable though, here's one of my western style Kamisori razors.
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/w...6.jpg~original
Yes, as I understand it, the people who (used to?, has it changed with newer smiths?) make kamisoris were not very big on buffing.Quote:
Originally Posted by celticcrusader
I always get a bit jealous when I see your pictures(partly because of your razors and partly because of your photography skills).
I like looking at the engineering type drawings of Steve56 and Baxxer. I don't understand either (especially the weird math sign). My instinct was that Steve56's razor was a Kamisori sitting on top of a wedge....so to recover some self respect.....I'll just stare at the shiny object in the celticcrusader's photo.
A ruler can make things look very neat and tidy.
The Alpha and Beta signs are just what I named the angles, I could just as well have called them 'A and B' or 'X and Y' but I find that it's easier to keep track of multiple signs/variables if I use the Greek alphabet for angles and the Latin alphabet for measurements(it's also how I was taught in school so I do it partly out of habit) and using Sine, cosine or tangent(depending on the case) for finding an angle is very simple if you have a couple rules memorized and a calculator.
I'm way ahead of you there.Quote:
Originally Posted by WW243
I also forgot to add that you should always tape Kamisori style razors as you see the side with the bevel as a protruding angle that's part of the grind that gives you the correct angle while honing if this is not covered it will wear rather quickly and dramatically alter the size of the bevel from a neat uniformed size to a rather large and undesirable in my view.
Hold on.....there is something dark about this pic.....THERE IS A HAND IN THE REFLECTION IN THE BLADE!Quote:
Originally Posted by celticcrusader
