Counterfeits?

I'm going out on a limb here but recently I've been seeing some very very mint condition razors on ebay selling for quite a large amount of money. While I realize the number of them showing up wouldn't make for a large amount of profit, I'm wondering if it's possible to counterfeit razors or if this is something known to happen.

Conceptually it seems pretty easily done if someone had the right tools and skills...

take cheap blade, wipe it clean of markings. forge new markings. use inlays from a vintage model of the razor you're replicating.

This is the skeptic in me coming out. :mace:

this is what got me thinking: I saw these (each link)... Four similar, perfect condition razors from the same seller?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Straight-Razor-G...#ht_720wt_1139

Straight razor Rasiermesser GLOBUSMEN Solingen WW2 Rare - eBay (item 180615526650 end time Jan-31-11 14:36:43 PST)


http://cgi.ebay.com/Straight-Razor-G...#ht_720wt_1139

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_720wt_1139

I think the razors are genuine.

I don't mean to say they ARE fake, I'm just asking about the possibility. Has anyone ever known of a high quality counterfeit to surface?

why would you do a counterfit razor? if you're good enough to produce a vintage factory level quality may as well put your own stamp on it. custom razors sell consistently for more money than vintage NOS ones. or at least make them 'filarmonica', 'wonderedge', or something else that will certainly sell for hundreds of dollars.

i think you're making mistake in assuming it's very easy

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Conceptually it seems pretty easily done if someone had the right tools and skills...

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there are some new 'masonic' razors on ebay that you can certainly tell are junk.

I would have to think less work is involved in a counterfeit vs. a custom. Plus the last Globusmen sold for $1,024. If you use another stamp for your work there's never a need to establish quality. If a maker of customs gets a bad reputation for quality no one will buy - with fakes that really isn't an issue.

Again I'm not saying it was fake but I think there's a real possibility that they exist.

Also, I don't mean to say it's "easy" I just mean to say if you have the skills and intent... it can be done. Just like how there are restorers and custom razor makers.

Right, and how 'easy' it is to put a deep stamp on a hardened metal? You surely wouldn't want to heat treat the metal, or instead of wiping clean old markings may as well start with a piece of soft steel.

I just don't see how is the economics working. HartSteel has the whole 'american made', support the cottage industry marketing thing going, the largest retailer, Zowada's name, a grind that doesn't compete with the mass production... and still they sell razors for $250 a piece.

You're really impressed by the single occasion that a razor from a brand that routinely sells for under $100, went for 10x that price and think this is sustainable. I don't see how it is.

From what we've seen few years ago there were a bunch of leftover Filarmonica blanks that Classicshaving got finished to razors (and some with terrible quality control) and over 3 years sold for prices starting at $75 and ending at $250. Then there are all these blanks from warehouses in germany that also get made into razors and pop up on ebay. The Revisors... That's the competition of high quality razors that a counterfeiter is going to have to deal with.

You can make a Double Arrow/Gold Dollar type of razor that shaves for $1-$2, but you ain't going to fool anybody that it is a vintage piece worth $1000. To make something looking as good as a vintage razor you'll have to put in the work and that's where the economics of your logic breaks.

I also think you're mistaken that it's beneficial to use an already established brand. Take a look at the prices of custom razors from new custom razor makers when they just start out, i.e. have no established names and compare to the average prices of NOS razors.

I just think you're making wrong generalizations from statistical outliers.

I've been in and around collecting old Case XX and other knives where counterfeiting did become a problem. OTOH it was rare for a bogus knife to pass the eye of a knowledgeable collector. The tang stamps and scales are not infrequently off. Newbies get stuck but not so much the more experienced. I've not seen it in razors yet.

I see your points and I'm probably wrong but I also think you're misunderstanding where I'm coming from.

The fact that I'm using the Globusmen razors has no real meaning. These are just what sparked the thought in my mind as there are several high quality ones currently on the market. Aside from that there isn't really any depth to why I mentioned them.

Also, you seem to be taking me saying the word "easy" a little far. I simply meant (in a beginners mind) that the concept seemed reasonable. I didn't mean to offend anyone or put down their skills to say this.

In the end there most likely aren't any high quality fakes out there but I think the possibility is there. If one of the great makers of customs on this forum wanted to replicate an old favorite razor of theirs I bet they could make it happen.

My 2 cents. I live in China and to tell you the truth every bloody thing is copied here from vitton to bath salt , food , Iphones. hell they even go to resteraunts collect used cooking oil along with the pig slop and cook, press filter and sell it as new. all the good counterfeit money though is still printed in DPRK

In some ways I wouldnt be so sure there isnt some shady little factory in guandong at least trying to do it but most likely if they are they are only being sold to punters here who dont know the diffrence.

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Originally Posted by ats200

In the end there most likely aren't any high quality fakes out there but I think the possibility is there. If one of the great makers of customs on this forum wanted to replicate an old favorite razor of theirs I bet they could make it happen.

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While just about anything is possible the full hollow Solingen razors would be tough to copy. Filarmonicas and some of the dubl ducks, not all, would be the most likely based on what is hot on ebay.

First of all you have the celluloid scales with intricate inlays on the ducks and embossing on the Fillys. Most difficult of all would be the full hollow blades. The custom makers in the USA, that I am aware of, make beautiful wedge, half and quarter hollow blades but the full hollow is another kettle of fish.

An artisan such as Heribert Wacker and some of the old guys that Thomas has at Revisor could do it because they have the skills, and most importantly, the specialized machinery to grind the FH. I am not aware of any custom maker who could do it without that specialized machinery.

If it were financially viable, and if they were willing, custom guys could more easily duplicate old Sheffield wedges, but the fact that the custom makers, who are still actively making razors, are doing fine making their own designs, and they are honest men who probably wouldn't counterfeit razors if they could. So go ahead and bid with confidence on that Filly, Bresnick dubl duck Reaper, or Wonderedge. :)

Thank you for that response Jimmy! I admit I was ignorant to the real facts of my thoughts regarding counterfeiting.

In my mind it seemed like it could be done but after the responses of both you and Gugi it seems much more unlikely.

Regardless, I'll be hoping for price drops before I bid on anything :deadhorse:

The fact is at the present there just isn't enough money to be made to make it worthwhile. Additionally if all of a sudden 50 or 60 pristine wonderedges suddenly started appearing people would suspect.

I think if they wanted to do it they would have no trouble paying people pennies to mold some fancy celluloid scales in china and make some fancy razors just that the quality of the steel wouldn't be there.

Just give them a good reason and profit and you will have it.

The only "counterfeits" I have ever seen or heard of are the razor shaped objects on our do not buy list.

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Originally Posted by shayne

My 2 cents. I live in China and to tell you the truth every bloody thing is copied here from vitton to bath salt , food , Iphones. hell they even go to resteraunts collect used cooking oil along with the pig slop and cook, press filter and sell it as new. all the good counterfeit money though is still printed in DPRK

In some ways I wouldnt be so sure there isnt some shady little factory in guandong at least trying to do it but most likely if they are they are only being sold to punters here who dont know the diffrence.

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This is possible.
Problem with razor's is to make them brand new will be a lot easier then to make exact copy different blade.
lets say pictures op post the links both blades are original.
Some one go head make exact same blade will cost him a lot money.
they can make similar to it but not exact same.
And quality wont be same ether.
gl

Perhaps I can give a different perspective about what happens.
A few years ago I managed to get access to the old parts warehouse of Hess Hair Milk Labs. In it I found a large box with approx 200+ razors that they had forgotten about! There were 3 different models, about 70 of each model. 2 of the models had blades that were severely rusted but one of the models, about 70 razors, were pristine! I purchased a bunch of them and sold them all.
My point is that there are still guys doing exactly what I did. They have found the inventory of old distributors and are now selling on Ebay. That is the most likely explanation of why we see these NOS razors on Ebay.

Hope this helps, :)

That is pretty cool. These guys? http://straightrazorpalace.com/buy-s...-no-200-a.html

Someone seems to have stumbled on an endless supply of filarmonica razors.

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

Perhaps I can give a different perspective about what happens.
A few years ago I managed to get access to the old parts warehouse of Hess Hair Milk Labs. In it I found a large box with approx 200+ razors that they had forgotten about! There were 3 different models, about 70 of each model. 2 of the models had blades that were severely rusted but one of the models, about 70 razors, were pristine! I purchased a bunch of them and sold them all.
My point is that there are still guys doing exactly what I did. They have found the inventory of old distributors and are now selling on Ebay. That is the most likely explanation of why we see these NOS razors on Ebay.

Hope this helps, :)

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There was a GD seller on ebay about six months ago that suddenly started selling $34 Dovo razors.
They did however still look like GD