Preposterous Paypal Puzzlement

I am not a regular user of paypal. In fact, I didn't really use my account until I began shaving with a straight razor.

I had a recent situation and since it isn't related to shaving I hope the mods will excuse my posting here.

I purchased a pet from an active breeder and payed via paypal. Before I ordered I researched the seller and found the normal mixed reviews found online, but there were just as many people supporting the seller as dogging them down. The primary naysayer was actually fired from the breeder before he began the slaying of character.

I broke one of my rules of pet purchase and I had the animal shipped. I payed for this animal back in February and was finally able to ship 5 weeks ago because of weather.

When the animal arrived it was alive, but on the verge of death from cold. After a couple of hours of intensive care it died. My wife contacted the breeder to inform and impart his live shipment guarantee. When she did, he offered to replace. He called back later in the week informing us that he no longer had any available. He asked that we wait a couple of days for him to check a local store that had some of his animals. When we called it took over a week to get a hold of him. Any way this behavior has continued with delays and unanswered phone calls since then.

We asked advice from another breeder about how we should go about getting a refund and he suggested that we wait and call every 4-7 days. He said that if we call angry or repeatedly that will only exacerbate the situation. I'm starting to believe that it may benefit me to contact paypal to contest the transaction, but my fear is since it has been many months since initial payment they will not help and it could cause us even more problems.

After that ramble what would the great collective mind of SRP suggest?

Treat it as any transaction, in my view.
If you do nothing; you're still out of the money and animal.
If it burns your a** and it appears that it does, then pursue some type of restitution.
Documentation is paramount. Then reach out to Paypal and seek their advise. Do your research on government/state laws that surround this type of business and the actual interstate transaction that took place. Most all businessmen cut a little corner, here and there. The good hearted ones mean no harm and will quickly right a wrong. People, like you just described, cut many corners (some criminal) and usually dismiss their complaining customers as just too stupid to catch them or too frustrated to pursue them. If you become a big enough pain to him financially and emotionally(there are many ways to do that) then he will more likely than not, compensate you to get rid of you.
The answer to your problem really only boils down to one simple question, that you must ask yourself, "How far do I want to take this?"
Do you just want to vent some frustration or do you want to make this man a mission?
When you have a few more options available to you; then respectfully express your intent to achieve satisfaction to the subject that wronged you. Don't expect much more, if anything from him at that moment. But you can guarantee that it will be in the foremost of his thoughts for a while. All my adult life was devoted to dealing with problem people at different levels. 95% of the time, I advised them of my intent right up front. 80% of the time, they told me to bring it on and go pound sand. I don't have any losses in that arena of my life.
So, back to the question, "How far do you want to take it?"

Paypal is 45 days uncontested,,, But I believe that is 45 days from "Delivery" so start the claim ASAP you can always de-escalate it and explain to the breeder that you have to start the claim or lose your Buyers rights... they know this and are hoping that you don't....
Start a claim with you CC company next as I am assuming that you used one...

Smile because both PP and your CC company are on your side as the buyer...

My bet is that the Breeder knows this too and when you process the claim he will suddenly jump on board... that has been my experience with PP claims very quickly after filing one every time I got the product fixed...

Thanks. I was probably frustrated with the breeder a few weeks ago, but now I am just attempting to see if I should even bother to pursue any further; just attempting to learn if it is possible to pursue this.
I'm not about to track this guy down, sue or contact him by every means possible. Despite my rights that is still harassment and in ungentlemanly. While some may do so, I have no desire to sink to his level. Besides it isn't enough money to be worth THAT much energy. My time (and emotional well being) is worth something as well.

Honestly Gerrit, I don't hardly buy anything without using my PP card any longer or PP directly just because they protect their users so well...

Open a claim it takes just minutes...

ungentlemanly? shipping you either a sick pup or poorly shipping you a pup and having it die it doesn't seem to me he requires any such coutesy! If nothing else as you don't seem to care about the $$ you might spare a few other folks the aggravation and a few dogs lifes. If he has his pups in a 'store' he isn't much of a breeder.

Can't you report him for cruelty to animals? It's what I would do.
Not because I am a vengeful person, but because I absolutely detest cruel people. I didn't know that shipping an animal was even legal, but shipping it in such conditions that it dies from cold / neglect just has to be illegal.

If that should fail, I would make sure that every breeder, buyer, reseller becomes aware of his practices. If I was convinced that he intentionally or carelessly did that thing, I'd make sure everyone knew. Perhaps register a domain name like XYZ animal cruelty.com, with full documentation, pictures, and the name, website and contact details prominently featured and optimized for search engine retrieval. Pass on the story to the ALF or whatever they are called, etc.

They say that you have to pick your battles with care. And honestly if it is a hassle, I personally would just drop the money issue and chalk it up as 'should have known better' money. But for the cruelty issue I would go the extra mile and hit where it hurts.

We don't know it was a pup, although the cruelty argument would carry some weight, chiefly against the seller, if it had been a piranha fish.

I don't know the length of time you have to contest a Paypal transaction for off-eBay transactions, although I know at least some of them now become covered. It sounds like the time limit has passed on this transaction, but it is worth checking up, and if that doesn't work, seeinbg what your credit card company can do. Getting your rights is likely to get future livestock their rights too.

A measure of deviousness doesn't seem unfair on this character. You could have a friend correspond about a fairly substantial purchase, and then ask whether he has reached a mutually acceptable solution in the .......... case.

If I have one rule in life it is to not allow myself to sink to the level of those who chose to harm others. A great man once said, "Never argue with a fool, he'll only bring you down to his level, then beat you with experience."

I will contact paypal on monday, since I spent the whole day prepping a field for hogs to arrive tomorrow.

I agree about the animal abuse, from what I understand there is an investigation of this individual and his business in process (found this out too late).

It is a snake. He was maliciously neglectful in my opinion. What he did was took a snake native to Brazil and shipped it with a cold pack instead of a hot pack. Snake breeders will often sell their snakes to smaller stores to help reduce their personal count or to eliminate older snakes that won't sell.

If this argument gets over the top I will personally see to it that this breeder does not repeat this offense, but only as a responsible (ethical) individual.

certainly seems odd to me.. but, whatever floats your boat! so, why come here asking for advise when you wanted none?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deighaingeal

If this argument gets over the top I will personally see to it that this breeder does not repeat this offense, but only as a responsible (ethical) individual.

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Just for clarity: I was not advocating doing anything illegal, but to reduce his chances of doing such again while staying on the right side of the law.

I would b lodging a Paypal dispute asap. From a purely transactional point of view, he has failed to honor his obligation. From a humanity point of view, the breeder sounds to also be a failure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Just for clarity: I was not advocating doing anything illegal, but to reduce his chances of doing such again while staying on the right side of the law.

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I understand that and did not take it as such. What I am saying is that I will gladly report him to the proper authorities at this point in time. If my dealings with him get rough through this process I would not go through the process to court, but I have no trouble using connections in the herpetological community through the University channels to have any and all of his living "assets" removed in an abbreviated action by claiming improper care and malicious neglect. Let me tell you, herpetologists are extremely sensitive to these types of actions.

It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, and have the situation under control.

The only comment I would make is that, in my experience, "mixed reviews" are not normal on the internet, and should be avoided... you have to hunt for the really good sellers/breeders/etc but they are out there, and everyone has the reviews they do for a reason...

Best of luck with the paypal dispute.

Yeah, just call paypal and see what they would advise you. They have their policies with time limits etc. and normally the counter starts at the transaction, but if there was shipping delay for good reason they will reevaluate the situation.
They are also open on Sundays, or used to be in the past when I've called them.

As others said even if the money isn't worth the hassle, the negligence likely is, and in my opinion a case with paypal, esp. if it's ruled in your favor is a black spot on his paypal record. I'm pretty sure if he keeps getting those he will meet real financial consequences, plus these records will probably be subpoenaed in an investigation.